New redfish rules coming ?

quote:
Originally posted by Optiker
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej

Reds are stocked every year out of the Waddell center from my understanding. They mark the hatchery fish with a chemical that binds to their DNA. When the racks are returned to DNR, the rack is checked for the chemical and if it’s present, they know it’s a hatchery fish. At the time I researched this (probably 8-10 years ago), about 3-5% of the racks that came back were determined to be from the hatchery.

  1. there is a problem with your theory that 200K hatchery fish should show an explosion in the fishery. There is a high degree of mortality on baby fish. They get eaten by bigger fish. Conceptually MILLIONS of babies are born each year, so 200K is a small number. That being said, the environment is harsh. Higher\lower temps, salinity, bait, etc could all contribute to be good or bad years. This happens in the wild too. Some “year classes” are more abundant than others because of this.
  2. Conceptually, the could distinguish if none of the 200K fish made it. This would mean that they would have no racks with the DNA that were from fish of the correct age (year that the mass release happened)
  3. SIDE NOTE: Something similar was measured with Cobia. I heard that 83% of the racks recovered proved to be from the hatchery. That means that wild fish aren’t doing so well…

To my knowledge, N. Edisto redfish have not been stocked since 2012 (I could be wrong). Redfish reach 30" in a little under 4 yrs. That would be now. There are hardly any 30" fish in that area compared to just a few years ago. Something happened to that stocking effort.

Are you saying that we see no effect from stocking? T

As with most internet arguments, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle…
I think we both want what’s best for the fishery


2000 SeaPro 180CC w/ Yammy 115 2 stroke
1966 13’ Boston Whaler w/ Merc 25 4 stroke “Flatty”
www.ralphphillipsinshore.com

quote:
Originally posted by Optiker

As with most internet arguments, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle…
I think we both want what’s best for the fishery


2000 SeaPro 180CC w/ Yammy 115 2 stroke
1966 13’ Boston Whaler w/ Merc 25 4 stroke “Flatty”
www.ralphphillipsinshore.com


Agreed on both points! Again, I was not being negative on stocking. I was only pointing out that stocking wasn't what was "supporting" the red fishery. In other words, the absence of stocking wasn't the root cause that the red fish population is in a death spiral.

And my point was if you use the Ashley as a comparison, where all striper are stocked fish, when there is a stocking effort the fish are everywhere and in an average trip you can catch 20, and after two years they are absent. Their reasons for being absent may be different, but I draw a direct comparison to redfish that reach maturity and head offshore. When RADDADDY says 5 years ago there were many schools of 500 fish in his area, well if you extrapolate thats probably in the 10s of thousands of fish in the whole area. That is just a small fraction of the quarter million stocked, and if the stocking effort failed, those fish will not be around.

I agree that there may be an underlying reason why these fish are not naturally gaining numbers, but I also firmly believe that stocking is essential.

Again, I’m not trying to negate your points, just stating mine more clearly.


2000 SeaPro 180CC w/ Yammy 115 2 stroke
1966 13’ Boston Whaler w/ Merc 25 4 stroke “Flatty”
www.ralphphillipsinshore.com

Again, 100% stocked striper vs 4% stocked redfish… Even though I am brand new to redfishing, my understanding is that schools frequent the same haunts year after year. If something happens to that school, it might not ever recover. Something I learned about bottom fishing offshore… If you take care of your spot, it will pay you dividends forever… If some other people find it an exploit it, it might never be the same again.

That’s a very good point and one that I have come to thoroughly appreciate after having recreationally tagged reds for the past 5 years or so. Redfish inhabit the same area for pretty much their entire inshore life. Almost without fail, fish that I have tagged have been caught within a half mile or so of where they were tagged, and often on the exact same piece of structure sometimes a year or two later.

It doesn’t take a genius to realize that a popular spot/creek/general location can get literally cleaned out in short order. Just being real, if I kept all the fish I could legally I think I could make a noticeable difference in population of fish on the creeks that I fish, all by myself. There are many that are better fisherman than I, and fish more often. The effect HAS to be very significant.

But, that doesn’t really explain the situation in the N. Edisto. Yes, the pressure has increased a lot there in the past 5 years, but it’s no where near Charleston.

You mention the 4% number, and I’ll assume that’s correct, but in the N. Edisto, there doesn’t seem to be a healthy population of natural born redfish. Maybe that is where we aren’t seeing things the same. I’m kinda focusing on the N. Edisto situation, where the stocked fish percentage is likely a lot more than 4%, since there aren’t many around at all. A big stocking effort there will be extremely noticeable, IMO.


2000 SeaPro 180CC w/ Yammy 115 2 stroke
1966 13’ Boston Whaler w/ Merc 25 4 stroke “Flatty”
www.ralphphillipsinshore.com

this is what i sent to the P&C… they obviously consolidated it. A LOT! lol

My thoughts are we need more hard science. As a captain I’ve seen many of these fish released successfully. I don’t buy that there is a significant amount of mortality with released fish. It’s more than 99% of the fish that we release that swim away vigorously and in good health. It seems that fishermen are always what gets the blame when a species population swings but very rarely are we actually what’s at fault.

Natural change could play a large part of what’s going on here. A long understood relationship between predator and prey is referred to as a “s shaped curve”. Simply put if more known Predators, like bottlenose dolphin, or in the marshes. Then their prey, for instance the red drum, will see a decline. That is just one of countless examples to explain why a population of a fish may fluctuate completely independent of any human involvement.

Outside of natural change I think that things such as the indiscriminate Nets that are drug behind shrimp boats should be investigated. It is well known that these boats pose a threat for sea turtles and marine mammals. But these both also kill an unbelievable amount of fish every single day. Out of those fish how many are juvenile or even adult breed stock redfish? Nobody Knows the answer to that huge question.

A very well regulated recreational fishery and no commercial fishing for this species leads me to believe it is not the guys buying the fishing license that is the problem. To ascertain what is truly going on here I believe a lot more science like the tagging program and Fish stocking need to be implemented or efforts increased. Only with concrete data can we choose a method to assist this fish that will actually improve the environment.

I had an interesting tagged redfish return in the mail yesterday. My response just above will give context.

Had a redfish that I tagged in the Wando R turn up 6 months later at Fripps Island (HHI). This was a subadult fish, tagged at 23.5" and recaptured/released at 24.75"
That’s by far the farthest one of my fish has been recaptured.

Could be a random fluke but I found it intriguing considering the theory that maybe they are leaving our waters…


2000 SeaPro 180CC w/ Yammy 115 2 stroke
1966 13’ Boston Whaler w/ Merc 25 4 stroke “Flatty”
www.ralphphillipsinshore.com

I don’t buy into the “leaving our waters” theory if you mean that the are relocating. That would typically mean that someone else sees some sort of abundance. Anglers in most of the eastern states have voiced concern over the stock.

There was a recent stock assessment done by the ASMFC and the “initial results show cause for concern”. This covers FL, GA, SC, NC and northward. They want to see a “spawning ratio” of 30%. Current rates measured at 17% in the southern states and 9% in NC and northward. This was the first time that this particular model has been applied to red fish, so the data has not been “accepted” yet, but if it is true, then it shows a hit to the spawning class of redfish.

Also, don’t forget that there is still a commercial fishery for them in NC.

I’ve been fishing the Georgetown area for reds for about 7 years. Finally started catching reds after a year of trying.
1st 4 years got better each year. Size and quantity increased.
We began catching more bulls in this area - 40" to 46" specimens.

Then quantity decreased, but size increased.
Now everything has decreased, almost vanished.

Actually Noticed 2 years ago that we caught very few under slots, but more and more over slots.

I actually thought I was becoming a better fisherman, probably did a little… LOL.

Fished the usual spots 1 day this week. Spots that should produce a red.
Not the first redfish or redfish bite…

Something ain’t right…
I hope we can figure it out.
I love the fish, the fishery, and I “got a bunch of money” tied up in equipment.

I guess I’ll have to become a bonafied spot & croaker fisherman… #128526;#128526;

With your thoughts in mind about shrimp boats, perhaps the decrease in their numbers will have a positive effect on the redfish population. I will assume you are talking about the big boys, which are actually going out of business in droves. The one that bother me are the smaller ones or the real small boats pulling nets close to shore. Around Otter Island, they are very prevalent as the come out of Bennett’s Point.

The killing of other species in the hunt for shrimp really is a shame. I am glad to see that that turtle excluders are now mandatory for shrimp nets.

One idea I have seen mentioned (and I am in favor of) is raising the cost of a saltwater fishing license. $10.00 a year is ridiculous and DNR could use the extra money to hire more wildlife officers.

Good discussion and let’s keep it going.

quote:
Originally posted by sniper7

this is what i sent to the P&C… they obviously consolidated it. A LOT! lol

My thoughts are we need more hard science. As a captain I’ve seen many of these fish released successfully. I don’t buy that there is a significant amount of mortality with released fish. It’s more than 99% of the fish that we release that swim away vigorously and in good health. It seems that fishermen are always what gets the blame when a species population swings but very rarely are we actually what’s at fault.

Natural change could play a large part of what’s going on here. A long understood relationship between predator and prey is referred to as a “s shaped curve”. Simply put if more known Predators, like bottlenose dolphin, or in the marshes. Then their prey, for instance the red drum, will see a decline. That is just one of countless examples to explain why a population of a fish may fluctuate completely independent of any human involvement.

Outside of natural change I think that things such as the indiscriminate Nets that are drug behind shrim

The problem is the bank fisherman keeping anything that bites the hook.I reported to DNR about men fishing under the 526 bridge putting bull reds in the truck and having an empty cooler with them when the man showed up.A friend told me they were selling the fish in his neighborhood.He saw coolers full of over sized reds.If you see this Griff it is still going on.

Stonoman

Limits? If you can’t eat it that day, toss it back. Friends don’t let friends eat frozen fish.

quote:
Originally posted by Sirslabsalot

Limits? If you can’t eat it that day, toss it back. Friends don’t let friends eat frozen fish.


My family and I eat a lot of frozen fish. On topic, I rarely if ever freeze Spottail as you can’t keep enough legally to have extra to freeze with the family I feed. But I have frozen a couple and never wasted one.

“If Bruce Jenner can keep his wiener and be called a woman, I can keep my firearms and be considered disarmed.”

I agree 100%!!! I’m with you Raddaddy, the redfish fishery has definitely gone down hill. I wish I knew the answer. I wouldn’t mind seeing some FL regulations. 18-27" and maybe only keep 1 per person. Lets try something like that for a while.

quote:
Originally posted by redfish4sure

With your thoughts in mind about shrimp boats, perhaps the decrease in their numbers will have a positive effect on the redfish population. I will assume you are talking about the big boys, which are actually going out of business in droves. The one that bother me are the smaller ones or the real small boats pulling nets close to shore. Around Otter Island, they are very prevalent as the come out of Bennett’s Point.

The killing of other species in the hunt for shrimp really is a shame. I am glad to see that that turtle excluders are now mandatory for shrimp nets.

One idea I have seen mentioned (and I am in favor of) is raising the cost of a saltwater fishing license. $10.00 a year is ridiculous and DNR could use the extra money to hire more wildlife officers.</font id=“red”>

Good discussion and let’s keep it going.[quote]


I agree, the DNR could use more funding for more officers, but the DNR is rarely the problem when it comes to their money woes. The General Assembly dips into the DNR’s wallet/budget more than the DNR does, and their mismanagement of our state’s money is well documented.

In the future, where every stranger poses a potential threat, knowing the predator mindset is the only safe haven.

Xpress H20B Bay Series
Yamaha 115 SHO

They should suspend or limit charter boats from killing species before local residents.

14’ Carolina Skiff
19’ Sea Pro

The irony behind this is I recall them bumping up the limit from 2-3 fairly recently!

quote:
Originally posted by in the grass

They should suspend or limit charter boats from killing species before local residents.


I agree totally and have been a big proponent of this for years. However, you’d be hard pressed to find charter guys regularly loading the 'gloo. Most are conservative at heart and want their fish in their spots for the next time. However, I have seen client + guide limits plenty of times. It would be good if the guide limit was just taken out of the equation. Plain and simple.

As a former guide and charter boat operator, the way I always operated was to try to catch enough fish to make the clients happy, but not too many. Take home enough for dinner. Release some more. Need to save some for tomorrow. If I felt like they’d caught enough fish, I’d move to where they wouldn’t catch any more, and tell them I reckon they quit biting.

Guides have a vested interest in saving fish for tomorrow, and for next year. They are probably more conservation minded than most recreational anglers. Their house payment depends on it. At least the ones I’ve met, and I know a few.

Capt. Larry Teuton
Swamp Worshiper