http://www.isleofpalmsmarine.com/
Just watch the video on the main page and you will see what happens in your fuel tank while you are on the water.
No one knows if YOU are THE village IDIOT or not until YOU open your mouth and speak!!!
Holy crap, I’m removing my vent line immediately!!!
Actually that was a poor example.
First, there is very little air that is exchanged in and out of the tank during a days outing. From the example we would be led to believe that we are running our boats out of an open bucket of fuel in the cockpit. The amount of air that is allowed to enter the tank while running is basically the same as the volume of fuel consumed. Certainly a whole lot less than having a fan run air over an open container.
Second, the water that was in the sample was all from condensation running into the sample due to evaporative cooling. Evaporative cooling inside a tank is virtually nonexistance because there is very little air exchanged (see above) and the mass of the fuel keeping the tank at a consistent temperature. Furthermore, any water that the alcohol pulled from the air you would not be able to see because it would be in solution with the alcohol (at least in the short term). For example, vodka is about 50/50 water and alcohol, but you don’t see it separate in the bottle.
Third, the biggest contributor to water in the fuel (other than an improperly installed vent or a bad fuel fill) is condenstion within the tank do to normal day/night temperature fluctuations. As a tank heats up during the day the vapor inside expands and is pushed out the vent. At night when it cools the vapor contracts, but the volume is now smaller that the void in the tanks so it draws in some air as well. This happens every day and night cycle. Thanks to our humid climate a lot of water vapor is also pulled in and condenses when the tanks cools. This is called breathing of the tank and is most prevalent in the spring and fall when the daily temperature differentials are the greatest. Breathing can be minimized by keeping the tank full. The advise to put only as fuel as you will need in the tank is incorrect.
Do use an ethonal treatment though.
Iain Pelto
Edgewater 185CC “Jumpin’ Bean II”
I tend to agree with you hairball. Keep the tanks full. reason one you are ready to go fishing and two, you never know what lies ahead of you in a day fishing
hairball
I have to disagree, and side with the guys in the video, even though his example is very exagerated.
we pumped some fuel out of a tank, into a 5 gallon bucket. inside the shop, no fan blowing. fuel was clear. we left for about 30 minutes and came back, and you could no longer see through the fuel.
with 30-50mph wind blowing past the vent, there has to be some movement of outside air inside the tank, plus all the sloshing around.
the biggest problem withthe keeping the tank full, is the humidity. with ethanol, it bonds with the water, and does a “phase seperation”. the more fuel you have, the more water it can collect.
now you have water standing in the tank, growing slime, and a bunch of fuel that now has a very low octane rating.
keep the tank as empty as possible, a good racor to handle the water, and fresh fuel each trip
the vodka water example isnt accurate, because the water bonds witht he alcohol and creates a solution.
the ethanol bonds withthe water, and both of them as a solution seperate from the fuel. you are seeing the alcohol water solution in the bottom of the fuel.
I’m now at www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
The Warden does medical research and she uses 200% proof grain alcohol in experiments. She says that an open container of alcohol will absorb about 5% moisture if left uncovered.
So if they need a solution that demands 90% alcohol, she’ll set her solutions at 95% alcohol and expect 5% water to be absorbed and will make her solution end up at the desired volume.
“I am constantly amazed at the stupidity of the general public.”
~my dad
Equipment:
190cc Sea Pro w/130 Johnson
1- 14 year old
1 - 10 year old
1 - wife (The Warden)
ECFC
quote:
Originally posted by chris Vhairball
I have to disagree, and side with the guys in the video, even though his example is very exagerated.
we pumped some fuel out of a tank, into a 5 gallon bucket. inside the shop, no fan blowing. fuel was clear. we left for about 30 minutes and came back, and you could no longer see through the fuel.with 30-50mph wind blowing past the vent, there has to be some movement of outside air inside the tank, plus all the sloshing around.
the biggest problem with the keeping the tank full, is the humidity. with ethanol, it bonds with the water, and does a “phase seperation”. the more fuel you have, the more water it can collect.
now you have water standing in the tank, growing slime, and a bunch of fuel that now has a very low octane rating.keep the tank as empty as possible, a good racor to handle the water, and fresh fuel each trip
the vodka water example isnt accurate, because the water bonds witht he alcohol and creates a solution.
the ethanol bonds withthe water, and both of them as a solution seperate from the fuel. you are seeing the alcohol water solution in the bottom of the fuel.I’m now at www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
Good info ChrisV and chuckdslayer.
For the record and I know it has been discussed repeatedly what is the best way to deal with this stuff (assuming we can not find a station with out it) Ringfree, empty tank always, 10 micron filter? I also heard it cleans the fuel tank and causes all the “gunk” that was collecting in the tank to be pushed through the carbs/injectors clogging them. Please provide your $0.02 Chris and any of you other mechanics.
Hopefully admin will make this a sticky topic cause it is probably the most discussed topic in boating right now.
Chris, I have to stand by my original post.
With the fill cap on, there is only one for air to go in and out of the tank; that is the vent line. Air can’t go in two directions at the same time through the vent line. You will have some pressure differentiol cause by wind which will cause some movement in or out, but it will be very minimal and flucutates averaging out to no movement. Therefore unless the volume inside the tank changes which it only does as fuel is consumed, no air will enter from the motion of the boat. Sloshing does not change the volume inside the tank either.
I too have witnessed fuel go cloudy when left in an unopened container. If you keep the tank full, then there is very little air to hold moisture that can then be absorbed by the alcohol. Also, fuel gives off vapors that are heavier than air. In a full tank the vapors will displace most of the air up and out of the vent in the limited void space in the tank.
An empty tank will also “make water” through condensation whether it has alcohol in it or not. That’s why the diesel guys keep there tanks pressed up.
Iain Pelto
Edgewater 185CC “Jumpin’ Bean II”
I have a Sea Hunt and the vent is built into the gas fill opening so the gas cap covers the vent at all times. I guess my boat doesn’t get that much air into the tank while running. Also, if your boat does have an an external air vent and you were running at 30-50 mph, the wind running over the opening would create a suction while running, of course this would depend on the angle the wind was hitting the opening, but in most cases it would be perpendicular to the opening, thus creating a suction.
I have to agree with hairball here for the most part. Taking fuel out of teh tank and putting it into a glass jar or a bucket subjects the fuel to ALOT more outside air than what is really getting into a fuel tank. Of course, this is considering MY boat as I don’t know about the larger boats and how big their air vents may be!!
I put a Yamaha Mini-10 Micron fuel/water separator on my 70 hp 2-stroke last week, cranked it up with the muffs on and it ran fine. Took the boat to Cherry Grove this past weekend, backed the boat into the water and got it started but it would not stay running, almost like the idle speed was too low. Pulled the boat out, disconnected the filter and put the original fuel line on. Boat started and ran fine. After a couple of hours sitting anchored, boat would not start. Tried repeatedly for almost 30 min. Finally ended up calling TowboatUS. Tried again about 5 minutes later and the boar started and ran fine (canceled tow). Took it out the next day and it ran great all day. Now I am afraid to hook the filter back up. Am I being paranoid? Was the installation of the filter and the boat not wanting to run a coincidence? With all the horror stories of fuel contamination, I really want to run the filter but am kind of afraid to. Any ideas?
well, you guys can agree or disagree, really doesnt matter
EVERYDAY, we see the gunk we are pumping out of the bottom of fuel tanks. it involves water, slime, and some kind of jelly looking goo.
its a proven fact that ethanol attracts moisture
we are pumping more water out of the bottom of fuel tanks than I ever saw with the MTBE fuel additive
I’m now at www.teamcharlestonmarine.com
This no idling problem is becoming epidemic, always seemed like starved for fuel, which it is since ethanol came around. Removing the water separator MAY be the answer, but goes against all past experience, and Chris V said to use Racor brand, which does remove water better than any other brand; plus you can easily empty the water anytime, even while fishing. Sounds like changing separator filters every trip is maybe a must, since the slime clogs the filter. Just sayin’, what say ye Chris V? Also Chris V what is the MTBE additive?
“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”
now now Chris, these are all just opinions and nobody said it wasn’t bad for the tank or engine. I just think that the example shown is an accelerated version of what happens in the tank. Anyway , this is good for your business!!
RWL
no worries, wassnt getting worked up, just pointing out, that our opinions on what happens to the fuel in the tank doesnt matter.
the stuff is causing havoc on boat systems, that it isnt causing on cars.
whats the difference?
open vents, and sitting around
BTW, in my first post, I did say that the example was exagerated
MACDADDY
I have no idea what the MTBE initials stand for, but it is an additive that is put in gasoline, but it is said to cause cancer. It helps oxygenate the fuel to make it burn cleaner, and help stop us from burning off our OZONE layer, and killing us all with radiation from the sun. so, think of all the money you are spending as an environmental tax to help save the planet. ALSO, all you people buying non ethanol fuel, you are adding cancer causing chemicals to the air, and you are buring holes in the OZONE, just so you can save a few thousand dollars. I cant believe the selfishness of you people.
problem…
the fuel now has less power, so we burn more of it to accomplish the same task
doesnt seem like to good of an idea, unless you are a corn farmer or gasoline engine mechanic
for the humor challenged, alot of what I said was sarcasm
if you arent sure which parts, send me a PM, and I will highlight the parts where I was just kidding
I’m now at www.teamcharlestonmarine.com