I’ve been catching these for years in the late summer months on a very particular piece of live bottom. I initially assumed that they were jumbo grey (mangrove) snapper but the bigger ones look very similar to small cubera snapper.
Apparently they only way to tell them apart at this size are subtle differences in their pec fins and mouth structure.
Cuberas have longer pec fins than grey snapper and the pec fins on these fish look longer than a grey’s but the mouth structure, especially on the smaller ones, looks more like a grey snapper.
Whatcha think?
I am an optimist so I say mangrove.
I haven’t heard of a lot of them being caught around here, must be a lucky spot!
Cubera. No dark line running through the eye.
Longbeard…I know what you are saying, but even mangrove snapper loose the line across the eye when they reach a certain size.
I use to live in and run charters out of Islamorada and we caught a lot of mangroves down there. Once they got up in the 3 to 4 lb range the line across their eye began to fade away. The ones in the 5lb range typically had no line left at all.
Not saying you are not right…just saying that I’ve seen lots of big mangrove snapper with no line.
Should have looked on the roof of their mouth - grey’s have an anchor shaped tooth patch while cubera’s have a triangle-shaped one. Sounds tricky but it’s actually pretty easy to see. Never tried it on a live one, however…
Like you said, the two species are very similar.
From the pictures, I say grey, because:
Snout is longer and more pointed in grey’s than cubera’s. Your fish seem somewhat pointed.
Caudal fin in cubera’s is nearly truncate, while grey’s are more forked. Your first pics shows the caudal well.
Nice catch!
Sublime,
Thanks for the info. I’m wondering if both mangrove and cubera are schooling together at this spot. Look at the fish bag picture. Check out the head’s of the two fish in the bottom right hand corner of the pic. The one on top has a more pointed snout than the one on the bottom. The shape of the eye also looks slightly different. The pec fins also look different. The one on top looks more like a mangrove to me while the one on the bottom looks more like a cubera.
I see what you’re looking at, but I think the angle of the snout in your picture might be affected by how the fish is laying. The bottom fish is sitting more upright and the top one is flatter (laying more on it’s side than belly).
Also, notice the lips of the two. Both are very similar in thickness. Cubera’s tend to have thicker, more full lips. If they were seperate species, I think you would notice a difference, however slight, with them laying side-by-side.
What depth are you catching them in?
We also have a Doggie that looks similar. Usually that little white eye patch on a dog tooth snapper occurs after sitting on ice a while. Your fish look like mangos to me, but there is undoubtedly some interbreeding among the species. That’s certainly why the underbites and overbites are confused on the species. You’ve got a classic catch scenario there. Usually when we find the mangos around here, they are thick. Name that spot Mangrove Hole, but they won’t be there next time. They move constantly around here.
Stephen Goldfinch
“Sleep When You’re Dead!”
How would a LEO determine if this is cubera or mangrove? Only matters, I suppose, if the fish is 30+ inches.
quote:
Originally posted by BigTuna
How would a LEO determine if this is cubera or mangrove? Only matters, I suppose, if the fish is 30+ inches.
99.9% of them can't.
And we don’t have a 30" rule anyway. That only applies to Florida.
Sublimeone is correct, did a little research and tooth patch in roof of the mouth is real ID difference. They do actually look like Mangoes to me after a little further checking.
At Longbeard: yea…but the hybrids will often have a hybrid roof patch. Around here (Georgetown/MI area) I see a lot of these fish that I would swear are too big for Mangos, yet have that mango roof patch. Also, if my memory serves me well, I believe the mango patch and the doggie patch are the same. There’s a lot of that hybrid mixing going on around here. Shot a HUGE yellowedge last year that I thought was a record until someone said “look at those black markings.” Testing says…Black and YE hybrid. It happens all the time. Someone will inevitably think they caught the world record mango and it will be a hybrid.
Stephen Goldfinch
“Sleep When You’re Dead!”
Yellabird - what kind of “tests” are being performed on your fish to determine species?
How do you guys know that they are hybrids, and not inbreeds? They were caught pretty close to Georgia after all!!!
quote:
Originally posted by SublimeOne
Yellabird - what kind of “tests” are being performed on your fish to determine species?
We’ve sent a couple of tissue samples to the DNA lab in CHS. Anytime there’s a question, we’ll call a local DNR guy that can ID them pretty well. The easiest way, however, is to ask your local fish dealer. Paul, for example. These guys can usually ID anything and any mixture of anything.
Stephen Goldfinch
“Sleep When You’re Dead!”
Yella - So DNA tests confirmed your fish was a hybrid between a black grouper, M. bonaci, and a yellowedge grouper, E. flavolimbatus?
quote:
Originally posted by SublimeOne
Yella - So DNA tests confirmed your fish was a hybrid between a black grouper, M. bonaci, and a yellowedge grouper, E. flavolimbatus?
Negative. I did say yellow edge, but I meant yellowmouth. My mistake.
Stephen Goldfinch
“Sleep When You’re Dead!”