HVAC advise, natural gas furnace acting up.

General Off Topic
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I’m asking here mostly because we have a lot of good folks here that know these sorts of things, and to find out what size natural gas heaters you guys are using on houses similar to mine. I’m probably going to be replacing one in the next month. Our house has a combo-unit, it’s a 1987 model Quaker-Heil. I think the furnace is a 90,000btu, which seems absurd overkill for my house.

My main question is this: Given the house description below, what sort of HVAC unit would you get? Can you get the AC and gas pack as two separate items? Are the AC/gas combo units more or less efficient (utility bill) than split-model versions? Are the 95% efficiency gas furnaces worth the extra cost over the 80%?

My house is a 1968 brick ranch, 1500sf, single story, 3 bedrooms, crawlspace, with rigid ductwork under the house that needs a little sealing up and patching the worn insulation. The HVAC is on the west side of the house, and the gas hot water heater (in good shape) is in a large utility closet on the east side of the house. I only have the 220v electric line going to the standard AC unit, which I don’t think will be sufficient for a heat pump style. Would require more wiring.

I’ve been told by one of the HVAC reps that the combo-pack units (natural gas/AC) are not nearly as efficient as the split-model heat pumps (no gas).

What do y’all suggest? I do have room in the attic if I really need to put a split model in, if this is really more efficient.

The problem we’re having with the gas heater is also a bit odd, so I’ll toss it out there for discussion. Please note that I have several CO detectors in the house that are nearly brand new and I’ve checked them regularly, with NO alarms going off at all. One is digital, and read 000ppm.

We are getting a faint chlorine smell (NOT natural gas smell) in one of our bedrooms when the furnace was running. You can also get a faint smell of natural gas (rotten egg) in the exhaust on the outside of the heater.

I have not smelled any natural gas in

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Howard Mixson installed my GasPack. Great guy. 889-6354

Marsha
22 Sea Hunt

3

hmmm…a lot of issues here

1- duct work in the crawl space is a lot better than duct work in an attic, no heat gain from the hot attic
2 - you are 10+ years past time to replace this unit, your power bill will probably drop 20-40%
3 - the lowest output gas pack will be overkill on the heating side, don’t worry about it, size it for the cooling, that is the real magic trick, most of the time units are grossly oversized and that isn’t good
4 - stay with the gas pac, yes the options on efficiency aren’t as great as with a split system but there won’t be enough difference to justify all the changes that you’ll have to make
5 - on the 95% vs. standard, if there is an option with the gas pac, just compare the operating costs vs. the purchase price, look at your average winter gas bill and subtract the average summer gas usage, that will be the gas used for heating, multiply that by .16, that will be a good estimate of the gas you’ll save, then just compare that to the difference in the purchase price
6 - forget the smells you have now, that unit is so old it’s crazy that it’s still working, the new unit will fix those issues

Pioneer 197SF

4

Blueskyguy, you confirmed just what I was thinking on nearly every issue. Thank you for that. I have HVAC contractor #3 (who is also a friend of my employer) coming to look at it and work me up a quote.

Thanks for the info on how to do a cost analysis on the 95% option. I will do that.

… The Cross of Christ is the anvil upon which the hammer of evil wore itself out.

5

Sorry, not my field at all. One of my fishing partners is my HVAC man.

Just wanted to say that this is what makes this forum great. Somebody on here is an expert on dang near any subject and willing to share information. Very cool :sunglasses:

Both of my HVAC units are 18 years old. I’m going to be in your boat very soon I’m afraid.

Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats

“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose

6

I replaced an 20yo unit about 2years ago.Man what a difference in the power bill,we go from ove 300.00 down to 190.00 average depending on th weather.

Double D.

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Mr Larry Cracker - man you need to replace those units, they may still be running but the mileage stinks

I don’t sell or install the stuff but I do get to see a lot of houses and installations, I’m an energy guy and can help get that bill reduced doing cost effective things

installing new units - that are properly sized - will make a huge difference

Pioneer 197SF

8

I’m sure you are right. I’ve got an all electric house, 2 story with separate units for each. Heat pumps. The downstairs is a package unit, the upstairs unit is split, with part outside and part in the attic. Got 2 water heaters also. Our electric bill is rough in mid summer and mid winter [:0]

Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats

“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose

9

Forget the warranty company. You are better off to not even pursue it. It will save you lots of aggravation and heartache, and in the end, you will still be paying for your new hvac system.

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quote:
Originally posted by birddawg

Forget the warranty company. You are better off to not even pursue it. It will save you lots of aggravation and heartache, and in the end, you will still be paying for your new hvac system.

For the most part, agreed, but there is a certain amount of satisfaction in exercising every bit of my right as a consumer to file legitimate complaints. It’s a matter of how emotionally whipped up you get into it that makes it not worth it.

This includes writing across the heavens via social media, review websites, consumer affairs, BBB, and such that this company has failed to provide the produce which I contracted them for. My case is really cut-and-dry.

… The Cross of Christ is the anvil upon which the hammer of evil wore itself out.

11

OK, so HVAC contractor #3 came today, a friend of mine, and for sure the heat exchanger is cracked, although it’s not huge. Unit really just needs to be replaced.

It looks like all the combo-units out there with gas packs are 80% efficiency, which is a bit disappointing, I’d be willing to pay a few dollars more to get the 95% efficient model. Either way, even with the 80% efficient model, I’m probably still going to be paying less to heat the house than if I had a heat pump.

… The Cross of Christ is the anvil upon which the hammer of evil wore itself out.

12

I just replaced my gas furnace last week with an American Standard which is made by Trane. Love it, very quiet. It is 95 % and variable speed. Furnace with a new a/c unit installed 6600.00.

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quote:
Originally posted by Cracker Larry

I’m sure you are right. I’ve got an all electric house, 2 story with separate units for each. Heat pumps. The downstairs is a package unit, the upstairs unit is split, with part outside and part in the attic. Got 2 water heaters also. Our electric bill is rough in mid summer and mid winter [:0]

Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats

yep, fairy standard installation, 2 heat pumps, if you have access to gas then a gas pac down and heat pump up is the best overall combination, regardless - get them changed and start saving money, before winter hits is a great time, before the big bills hit

the water heaters are costing you about $15 each a month just to sit there (standby loss), if you have access to gas then install an instant heater, if not and if you don’t really need two heaters then I’d get rid of one, if you are handy you can use pex pipe and do the replumbing work yourself

if you have to have the two heaters then set them on 120 degrees and make sure that both thermostats on each heater are set at the same temperature, then install another layer of insulation around the heater, it will save you $5 a month

Pioneer 197SF

14

I’m way out in the woods. No access to gas unless it’s an on-site propane tank. Would that be more cost effective?

quote:
I just replaced my gas furnace last week with an American Standard which is made by Trane. Love it, very quiet. It is 95 % and variable speed. Furnace with a new a/c unit installed 6600.00.

And I’ve got 2 of them [:0] $13K will buy a lot of electricity! Mine are Trane units too. Been very reliable.

Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats

“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose

15

I doubt very highly that propane would be more cost-effective, Larry.

… The Cross of Christ is the anvil upon which the hammer of evil wore itself out.

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propane would not be cost effective, there are no controls on the price and at certain times (cold weather) there are shortages, using gas or propane for heat is not about saving money it’s about having hotter air, 110 degrees, instead of the heat pump, they both work great but the heat pump is less expensive to operate, if you get a good heat pump and it is installed properly it will work great

as for the “$13K can buy alot of electricity”, I work for the power company, we love people that think like this, my neighbor is one of them, his bill is 2.5X larger than mine, we gladly take his money every month

think of it like this:

  • the units will fail and they always fail during the worst weather
  • during the heat and cold the dealers get their full price, during the milder times they are willing to negotiate
  • knowing that at some point you will be forced to spend the $13K

  • would you rather spend it now, when you have time to shop around to find the best unit at the best price, or wait until they fail and be forced into getting something quickly?

  • by replacing now you can begin saving money immediately

  • or you can wait, pay the high bills, and still spend the $13K

  • it will save you at least 40-50% of the heating and cooling part of your bill, assume that your bill averages $250 a month, everything except the HVAC cost $70 a month, the HVAC cost is then $180 a month, 50% of that is $90 a month or $1080 a year

  • think of it as an investment: the $13K will save you (or earn you) $1080 a year, then you are earning a guaranteed 8.3% annually, and you will be more comfortable

I can give you specific advice if you want to share specific details about the house, and the bills. If you are served by SCE&G I can review your billing info online and all we’ll need to do is talk about the house. It’s free cause I like to hunt and fish and will trade :smiley: Regardless, it’s still free, I hate to see people waste money.

Pioneer 197SF

17

Matt - what area are you in? I sell HVAC products and equipment and like Marshgrass said, Howard Mixson is very good and knows his stuff. He and his son are also great fishermen that my family has known and fished with since the 70’s. If i can help you out feel free to Inbox me or contact me here or via email. More than happy to lend some input.
Victor
SAKATUMI TRAE
19’ SEA PRO CC // 150HP YAMAHA

18

Larry, Blueskyguy is right about the cost. I’ve lived in a PILE of rental units that had piece-of-crap air conditioners, and the landlords didn’t give a rip because they didn’t pay the bills. I’ve paid $250/month for 1,000sf apartments often enough (in 2003!) to know what a difference it makes, especially over time.

Traebaum, I would be glad to have them give me a quote. I will inbox you my number.

… The Cross of Christ is the anvil upon which the hammer of evil wore itself out.

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Matt - inbox sent to you.

Victor