I fish a structure on the backside of Folly. Over the last 10 years, I have caught what appears to be a juvenile gag on two occasions (most recently Sunday), and my wife has caught one. Each fish hasn’t been over 4 or 5 inches long and I am almost positive they are juvenile gags. Always in the same location and about 5 years apart. Sorry no pics. And no, they are not seabass. Anyone else ever see this?
Narcosis
I’ve caught many juvenile gag groupers off my neighbor’s dock on the east end.
The young (always female) begin life in estuaries until large enough to move offshore. So yes you can often find small grouper inshore and nearshore. Usually on structure such as wrecks, docks, piers, and oyster beds.
I catch plenty while fishing structure, but never more than about 10" long. Plenty of juvie gags inshore around Charleston.
Redfish Baron Extraordinaire
yep, late summer and fall before they migrate offshore. there has been talk for a few years of using otoliths for microchemical analysis to determine estuaries of origin based on chemical signature, could help determine if there are particular nursery habitats that are more productive than others.
Considering how many eggs and the way they change from female to male after few years I would love to know more how the spawn etc. Such a strange species for sure haha.
lots of protogynous hermaphroditism in reef fishes, but i’ll let fishcrazy field that one… i’m Inshore Life
Gags spawn offshore near the “ledge” in Jan-Mar. Their larvae float (with current) into inshore estuaries and hatch around April. They usually hang around oyster beds until the full moon in October where they make their way out to sea (nearshore). I believe that the gags you see in our estuaries were probably hatched a bit south of here (Georgia). They did some test in SC several years back releasing “floaters” around our ledge and they ended up being swept up to Hatteras, so that’s probably where our hatch goes.
Typically as they get bigger, they move further offshore. Once they get around 30 lbs they usually start to transition to males. All of them start out as females. Once you see the “charcoal belly”, it’s 90%+ chance that it’s a male. Typically the gags you see in 100’ in that 10-20 lb range are all females about 4-8 years old.
Note that this is why we will have “good years” and “bad years” with gag fishing. If their larvae don’t make it to shore, if the inshore waters are too cold or too hot (even by a couple of degrees), if our oyster beds are in bad conditions, etc, these all affect the amount of larvae that make it to adult hood. We might have a bad hatch in 2015 and not see the results until 4-8 years later (because that’s how old they are when we are harvesting them).
Also note that gags move East and South. About a decade ago, they tagged a couple thousand gags right here in SC. 25% of them ended up in Florida with at least one of them ending up around Tampa in the GOM.
It’s incredibly how important the marshes and estuaries are to the entire ecosystem.
“Edaniel is a compromising liberal, according to past threads, so consider that info here too.” - mac daddy
I’ve caught them in cast nets.
The marshes are the nurseries for the sea.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Swamp Worshiper
quote:Indeed. The federal government tries to blame everything on fishermen. But if you think about it, there are other relationships that are important too. It's said that the world's oyster beds have declined something like 70-80%. I've also heard that we are better off in SC with only about 50% of our oyster beds gone. Also, note that they believe gag grouper to be at 50% of historical levels... So, let's see, you take away 50% of their larval\estuarine habitat and gags are down by 50%??? Hmmmm... Sometimes you have to look at the big picture.
Originally posted by EdistodanielIt’s incredibly how important the marshes and estuaries are to the entire ecosystem.
“Edaniel is a compromising liberal, according to past threads, so consider that info here too.” - mac daddy
That being said, gags are the PERFECT fish to raise in a hatchery, and I have been trying to push this agenda for years. Think about it… It’s an offshore fish that could be raised at the Waddell Center and dumped straight into the marsh in May and would make it’s way offshore. There is NO reason why we can’t do this.
The loss of all the nearshore habitat due to roller nets has more to do with the different gag population now vs historically than the oyster beds…
You have jetties and beach renourishment you didn’t have in 1940 either…
Everything’s totally different, notwithstanding how much easier it is nowadays for someone to buy some numbers from Sellsfish and go catch some groupers at will.
Part of the agenda you push, Skinnee, needs to be how ridiculous it is to expect a habitat to have the same carrying capacity now as it did 80 years ago- with or without the “structure.” There’s also food, which isn’t the same now at all compared to decades ago.
What’s juvie gag’s diet? It isn’t fish- it’s shrimp. How’s the shrimp fishery been around here lately? It’s tough for a grouper (or snapper) these days to make it to the ocean! Not much to eat when menhaden boats are whipping out what (protected) bull reds and other nearshore and inshore fish used to pig out on. They instead have to pig out on shrimp and other creatures that would have otherwise been gag grouper forage for them when juvies.
Nobody cares at NMFS. Their solution is to end all fishing as if that will solve all the problems. Problem is that it will never happen. The ocean’s needed for food for mankind. That’s what it’s for anyway. All this ideology that animals aren’t meant to be eaten is naively myopic.
I agree with you- raise more of them and add habitat, but what are we doing for FOOD for them (and us?)
Luke 8:22-25
quote:
Originally posted by barbawanglots of protogynous hermaphroditism in reef fishes, but i’ll let fishcrazy field that one… i’m Inshore Life
Well if I had to sum up reef fish reproduction I would put it this way…If you can think of a way to make whoopy fish can do it. Kinky little bastards.
And Narcosis DNR conducts annual juvenile gag ingress sampling which we are hoping to use in the study Barbawang mentioned. The ones we get are about the size of your pinky nail. We also get lots of baby lobster, it surprises me that we don’t see them in crab pots.
quote:I've only seen 3 juvenile lobster (i.e. wouldn't measure to 3" carapace) offshore in my 11 years diving in Charleston. Seems that it's something about the habitat that doesn't let them grow to maturity here. I've always thought that the ones we have crawl\walk up here from the South along the big ledge superhighway and then move inshore from there.
Originally posted by fishcrazyquote:
Originally posted by barbawanglots of protogynous hermaphroditism in reef fishes, but i’ll let fishcrazy field that one… i’m Inshore Life
Well if I had to sum up reef fish reproduction I would put it this way…If you can think of a way to make whoopy fish can do it. Kinky little bastards.
And Narcosis DNR conducts annual juvenile gag ingress sampling which we are hoping to use in the study Barbawang mentioned. The ones we get are about the size of your pinky nail. We also get lots of baby lobster, it surprises me that we don’t see them in crab pots.
Also, in your samples, my understanding is that you see a few black grouper too (1-2% or something).
quote:Yeah fair enough. That is definitely another part of the equation.
Originally posted by PhinThe loss of all the nearshore habitat due to roller nets has more to do with the different gag population now vs historically than the oyster beds…
You have jetties and beach renourishment you didn’t have in 1940 either…
Everything’s totally different, notwithstanding how much easier it is nowadays for someone to buy some numbers from Sellsfish and go catch some groupers at will.
Part of the agenda you push, Skinnee, needs to be how ridiculous it is to expect a habitat to have the same carrying capacity now as it did 80 years ago- with or without the “structure.” There’s also food, which isn’t the same now at all compared to decades ago.
What’s juvie gag’s diet? It isn’t fish- it’s shrimp. How’s the shrimp fishery been around here lately? It’s tough for a grouper (or snapper) these days to make it to the ocean! Not much to eat when menhaden boats are whipping out what (protected) bull reds and other nearshore and inshore fish used to pig out on. They instead have to pig out on shrimp and other creatures that would have otherwise been gag grouper forage for them when juvies.
Nobody cares at NMFS. Their solution is to end all fishing as if that will solve all the problems. Problem is that it will never happen. The ocean’s needed for food for mankind. That’s what it’s for anyway. All this ideology that animals aren’t meant to be eaten is naively myopic.
I agree with you- raise more of them and add habitat, but what are we doing for FOOD for them (and us?)
http://www.sustainablefishing.org/
www.joinrfa.com
Luke 8:22-25
quote:
Originally posted by PhinThe loss of all the nearshore habitat due to roller nets has more to do with the different gag population now vs historically than the oyster beds…
You have jetties and beach renourishment you didn’t have in 1940 either…
Everything’s totally different, notwithstanding how much easier it is nowadays for someone to buy some numbers from Sellsfish and go catch some groupers at will.
Part of the agenda you push, Skinnee, needs to be how ridiculous it is to expect a habitat to have the same carrying capacity now as it did 80 years ago- with or without the “structure.” There’s also food, which isn’t the same now at all compared to decades ago.
What’s juvie gag’s diet? It isn’t fish- it’s shrimp. How’s the shrimp fishery been around here lately? It’s tough for a grouper (or snapper) these days to make it to the ocean! Not much to eat when menhaden boats are whipping out what (protected) bull reds and other nearshore and inshore fish used to pig out on. They instead have to pig out on shrimp and other creatures that would have otherwise been gag grouper forage for them when juvies.
Nobody cares at NMFS. Their solution is to end all fishing as if that will solve all the problems. Problem is that it will never happen. The ocean’s needed for food for mankind. That’s what it’s for anyway. All this ideology that animals aren’t meant to be eaten is naively myopic.
I agree with you- raise more of them and add habitat, but what are we doing for FOOD for them (and us?)
http://www.sustainablefishing.org/
www.joinrfa.com
Luke 8:22-25
Nursery habitat is CRITICAl…if the juveniles aren’t surviving, then they can spawn all they want and you won’t see any increases in the population. But if levels are at 50% historical levels they may
Those baby gags sure do taste good.
quote:
Originally posted by fishcrazyThis may seem crazy to some, but I think the big problem is there are WAY to many of us. Which is a lot of hungry mouths to feed and most people are now migrating to the coast and destroying coastal habitat (aka nursery grounds) like its no big deal. On top of this a lot of people have the mentality of take, take, take, and then deal with it when it collapses or just move on to the next resource. I think Skinnee and Phin have mentioned “The Tragedy of the commons”.
The beauty of our offshore fishery with respect to bottom fishing is that much of the “access” is controlled by the secrecy of the fishing spot. Check out my waypoint book and Phin’s waypoint book compared to the average startup. Actually, no, don’t check them out… We aren’t sharing
But, what you are saying is 100% true in South Florida and the keys. There are virtually no secrets down there. No where a fish can hide. This is why I am anti-MPA north of Jupiter on most grounds, but slightly pro-MPA (depending on the layout) in the keys, tortugas, and South Florida.
Also, don’t forget that there might be “too many of us” by today’s fish population standards, but as Phin mentioned, the bottom trawlers who drug nets across the Red Banks in the 70’s were really the issue. They knocked the population down and it took almost 30 years after banning them before red snapper started to make a comeback. These populations will eventually rebound to carrying capacity. I think it is going to be LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGG time before SC ends up like South Florida…
That is unless, the commercial guys go to VMS and the feds publish all of the habitat. When that happens, our fishing will be destroyed forever.
saw a fella catch a 19" gag off the mt pleasant pier a few years ago. man it hurt him that he had to release it lol
“mr keys”