There is really no need to debate over this. I feel more comfortable with a BOS. So I require one and proof of a CWP as it indicates you are a law abiding citizen. If you don’t think one is needed that is your lawful choice.
It is a personal preference for me.
j
A CWP is not required for a one-on-one gun sale either. You saying if I were to buy your ****ty Stoeger O/U 20ga for dove hunting that you would require me to have a CWP to purchase from you? I hope that is not what you are saying. Also, if I were to buy your junky Taurus 9mm, I am still not required by law to have a CWP for one-on-one transactions. There is no reason to do a BOS in any transaction. Our laws are written the way they are for a reason. To protect you from Gov’t overreach. And as noted earlier, you do not even have to report your gun stolen in any event. There is no registry in this state. You can report your gun stolen if it in fact has been stolen, but that is only if you think you have a chance in hell of ever seeing it again.
There is really no need to debate over this. I feel more comfortable with a BOS. So I require one and proof of a CWP as it indicates you are a law abiding citizen. If you don’t think one is needed that is your lawful choice.
It is a personal preference for me.
j
A CWP is not required for a one-on-one gun sale either. You saying if I were to buy your ****ty Stoeger O/U 20ga for dove hunting that you would require me to have a CWP to purchase from you? I hope that is not what you are saying. Also, if I were to buy your junky Taurus 9mm, I am still not required by law to have a CWP for one-on-one transactions. There is no reason to do a BOS in any transaction. Our laws are written the way they are for a reason. To protect you from Gov’t overreach. And as noted earlier, you do not even have to report your gun stolen in any event. There is no registry in this state. You can report your gun stolen if it in fact has been stolen, but that is only if you think you have a chance in hell of ever seeing it again.
Above, he said “If you dont think one is needed, that is your lawful choice. It is a personal preference for me.”
If you dont agree to his terms for the sale (presentation of a CWP and a signed BOS) you dont have to buy it. He is allowed to require more than what is legally minimally necessary if it makes him happy, and you are allowed to decline and buy guns from somewhere/someone else. It is, indeed, a free country.
If you would like to enter into a purchasing agreement where I require you to
When I have purchased from an individual the only thing I’ve done is have the law run the serial number. Make me feel better. On the selling side, never done it. Any that have left my ownership were given away to family.
There is technically not a gun registry specifically with local/state SC or fed. gov. But, for those of you who have brought that up, what exactly do you think happens with all those 4473 forms with your personal info and serial numbers? Based on the requirements for FFLs to keep them for record keeping and manufacturers requirements for record keeping, to me it is essentially a registry. Those record keeping requirements are a way to circumnavigate not having gov. registries, but still have access to the info they want. Granted it’s only for weapons purchased from an FFL. If I buy a gun from an FFL and later sell said gun, I want some kind of documentation that I no longer own that gun since according to official records and the 4473 I own it.
I guess it boils down to a personal preference and feel good measure. If you think you need it to protect yourself, then do it. If “your” gun is used in a crime because you sold it and it fell into the wrong hands for some reason, a BOS isn’t going to stop some unscrupulous lawyer (a few, not the majority) from naming you in a lawsuit. It would be akin to a gun manufacturer or ammo company being named in a lawsuit because they made the item used, they have BOS’s too to distributors, who have BOS to dealers who have BOS, to you the original owner. Wes can clarify but anyone can be named in a civil suit if they had any perceived culpability in the items misuse.
4473 is not kept on file with SLED or the FBI from anything I have ever heard. They use the form to approve or deny your application to purchase, after that they are destroyed or supposed to be. I’m not saying that is 100% the case, we don’t really know what sort of secret database the goobermint has on us.
Mark
Pioneer 222 Sportfish Yamaha F300
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but they’re definitely dirty. But, a dog’s got personality. Personality goes a long way.
“Life’s tough…It’s even tougher if you’re stupid” John Wayne
You don’t own anything according to that 4473 form. You only purchased it.
A BOS can backfire on you just as easily as you think it could help you.
For instance, somebody has an alibi…
They can recount exactly where they were and who they were with 2 years ago. When being cross examined, a good prosecutor will ask a witness, “now tell us when your birthday was that year.” Do you remember what TV show you watched that night? Where you ate? Who you were with? So how is it that you remember all that about this other day, this ordinary day that meant nothing to anyone until you got subpoenaed to be here?
Let’s say I’m a prosecutor, and you’re on the stand with your BOS. Even better, let’s say you won’t be taking the stand- 5th amendment. What will I do to get around your BOS?
Officer A, how many times have you seen a BOS between two parties selling a gun?
Never.
Officer A, can you think of any reason why somebody would create this kind of rare document?
Objection
Sustained
Damage done… all that is needed is one cynical jury member to think you created that BOS to try and cover up something you had planned…
It isn’t unimaginable, as Dabo would say (j/k). I have seen it done by attorneys successfully in court- especially by a defense attorney when multiple defendants are being tried at once. Think armed robbery where one guy will get maxed for planning everything and pointing the gun at the clerk while the others are going to get less time. It works. The defense attorney jumping up to object is effectively waving a giant sign over their client’s head that says, “We don’t want you to hear that! We’re hiding something.” I’m not talking BOS, because that truly just isn’t ever heard of. I’m talking about who possessed a gun and how a jury deals with that question.
A lot of lawyers think they can plan ahead for everything, but you can’t.
False sense of security is a bad thing…
Paperwork, when the law doesn’t require it, can be good and bad is what I hope you realize. A 3rd party will ask, “why did he do that? was he expecting problems to occur later on? why?”
Your explanation for having a BOS is one of two things:
you want to prove when you didn’t own the gun anymore because you’re afraid something wrongful could be done with the gun
you want to cover yourself because you KNOW something wrongful will be done with the gun
How do either of those help you when you get into a sticky situation? They both place some level of culpability on you.
A #3, “you had to change the name on the registration because the law required that,” would get you out of #1 or #2 easily, but I do not think it is a good thing for our government to have such a registry- EVER. That’s nothing but lube for a police state to slide down the pipe.
What about you want to cover yourself from the guy you just bought it from reporting it stolen?
You buying on the corner or Meeting St or off Armslist?
Mark
Pioneer 222 Sportfish Yamaha F300
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but they’re definitely dirty. But, a dog’s got personality. Personality goes a long way.
“Life’s tough…It’s even tougher if you’re stupid” John Wayne
What about you want to cover yourself from the guy you just bought it from reporting it stolen?
You buying on the corner or Meeting St or off Armslist?
Mark
Pioneer 222 Sportfish Yamaha F300
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but they’re definitely dirty. But, a dog’s got personality. Personality goes a long way.
“Life’s tough…It’s even tougher if you’re stupid” John Wayne
What’s the difference. Anybody with the interwebs can buy and sell off of Craigsl…oops, I mean Armslist. I bet even the people on the corner of Meeting gets on the interwebs. It’s craigslist for guns. And there’s some sketchy characters on craigslist. Sure are plenty of sketchy characters on Armslist too.
4473 is not kept on file with SLED or the FBI from anything I have ever heard. They use the form to approve or deny your application to purchase, after that they are destroyed or supposed to be. I’m not saying that is 100% the case, we don’t really know what sort of secret database the goobermint has on us.
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Don’t know where people get this idea that 4473 forms are destroyed. This was my point. Correct, there is no SLED, FBI, or ATF registry at all. But it is kept on file by the FFL. The FFL must keep on file for 20 years every single 4473 form the was a completed transfer. That form contains the gun’s info and serial number along with all of your personal info. So essentially it’s a rough, scattered registry that the gobmint doesn’t have to keep up with, they make the FFLs do it. Nothing secret about it.
From ATF.gov website:
Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?
FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.
[27 CFR 478.129(b)]
I was actually defending the reason to have a BOS. It's pretty hard to claim someone stole something from you when you have their signature on a piece of paper...
Yes, I do have an add on “Craigslist”, a phone number, email, etc. But so do other thieves on Craigslist. The guy could say I contacted him, arranged to meet, and beat him over the head, took the gun and never gave him the money. It would be my word against his at that point.
I was actually defending the reason to have a BOS. It's pretty hard to claim someone stole something from you when you have their signature on a piece of paper...
Yes, I do have an add on “Craigslist”, a phone number, email, etc. But so do other thieves on Craigslist. The guy could say I contacted him, arranged to meet, and beat him over the head, took the gun and never gave him the money. It would be my word against his at that point.
Then get a bill of sale for guitars, laptops, baseball cards, 37" mud tires or anything else you might purchase off the used market.
“Protect yourself,” as it were, against all calamities, not only those that are gun related.
I will remind you once again- a bill of sale that isn’t notarized, is the same thing
Phin said pretty much the same thing I’m saying just with a lot more words. BOS is virtually worthless in a private gun sale. Sold them every way imaginable, CL, AL, GB etc. refused a few shady characters in that time too. I make them meet me at a place and time of my choosing and always in broad daylight. I never meet at my home. And I always have a phone conversation with them beforehand.
Mark
Pioneer 222 Sportfish Yamaha F300
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but they’re definitely dirty. But, a dog’s got personality. Personality goes a long way.
“Life’s tough…It’s even tougher if you’re stupid” John Wayne
Andyb and others that know… I lost a firearm in my truck stolen at Charlotte airport. I tried to track down the serial number where I bought it and they laughed saying that the numbers are not kept or tracked. So unless you are tracking your serial numbers, no one will for you. Sell a gun and keep the s/n for any theft, that’s about all you get out of it.
