Anyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?
I realize that they’re up on the flat to eat fiddlers, crabs and shrimp and therefore, generally have their face in the mud, but I also see a ton of mullet cruising near the surface which I assume they’re sometimes feeding on as well.
You might say “try it and see what happens” but don’t want to recreate the wheel and waste time if others have found it unproductive.
I’ve thrown at a lot of fish over the last few years, and I’ve tried surface flies, but never gotten one to eat. I’m certainly no expert, but they are there to eat fiddlers and should spend most of their time looking down. We typically use a crab or shrimp pattern on the flat and it seems to work well.
Perhaps it might work when you have a higher than normal flood for a particular flat and you can no longer see tails above the water’s surface. Then you’d be blind casting most of the time, but surly you could catch one’s attention by having something making a nice wake on the surface.
I was out on a high tide last week and there was about 1.5’ on top of the flat. Mullet schools were everywhere and tails were mixed in there. Didn’t see any reds hit the mullet…for what its worth.
Also a good thing to do is stop in at the Charleston Angler and talk to the guys there. Several of them are guides and most all are avid fisherman. Its an excellent source of local information.
Was walking down a dock a few years back at high tide and watched a mouse making its way across a large expanse. He’d hop up on a rack of dead spartina and catch his breath. Then, dive in and swim underwater for a few feet and pop back up. If there was a rack close, he’d hop up and catch his breath. If not, he’d go under again for a foot or so. I was surprised to see him swim under water. I would have bet he’d swim like a rat or raccoon, dog paddling with his head out of the water.
After seeing that I’ve tried full sized mouse patterns and Dahlburg divers (brown and black). (Got Colt an Chas Angler to tie me some custom mice and the fish loved 'em.) They float and a quick strip will make them dive and you can pull them a foot or so and let them surface. I’ve had quite a few fish come after them but I’m terrible with them. I’m used to fishing crab patterns or spoons and I don’t try for a hook set until I feel the fish pulling. With the mouse patterns, the take is top water or very near the surface and you can see the fish going for it. I take the fly out of the fish’s mouth every time. So, frustration has led me back to crabs and Dupree and Hamilton spoons. If you can control yourself better than I can, the mices should work.
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26’ Palmer Scott
Good info guys.
The reason I asked is because a few weeks ago, I saw fish tailing on several occasions, and made what I thought to be pretty decent casts with crab patterns but couldn’t get the dang things to eat. I wasn’t spooking many (occasion here and there) but I didn’t get any fish to jump on the fly like I was hoping for.
So either;
A) they weren’t seeing the fly (and I tend to use large flies just for this purpose).
B) they were seeing it and didn’t want it
C) they were hearing the fly land or line slap and just cruising off.
At least with a top water, I was thinking that if they heard it and came after it, there’d be no doubt that what you were doing was effective.
Bone… The fish will hear a fly hit, and yes they will know something is up and cruise off… just gotta try to get it to land softer or lead them more in those situations…
As for fish not seeing the fly… I tried to remedy this problem alot of years ago when I tied the Copperhead Crab pattern… Its not gonna work 100% of the time, but they don’t ever “not see it”… they may spook, or they may kill it… but either way they react.
Granted i’m a little partial to my pattern, but basically what I’m saying is, try something a little brighter that will get them to see it… also, make sure and let the fish find the fly… in other words, lead them, and get the fly into their way… allow them to swim to it vs. trying to put it right in there on them… you’ll up your percentage alot by taking this approach…
As for topwater… yes it works… pretty well actually… but reds aren’t made to eat on top, and they will miss alot…
Good luck to you
Mad Mike
"to hell with insane… I’m OUTsane!!! "
quote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherAnyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?..
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>Yep. My preference is for using flies near or on the surface. Deer hair flies like a muddler minnow will work at the surface and the dahlberg diver floats on the surface. You definately don’t have to worry about the fish seeing a dahlberg.
There is a whole category of surface flies that are popular but, I don’t use them.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad_MikeBone… The fish will hear a fly hit, and yes they will know something is up and cruise off… just gotta try to get it to land softer or lead them more in those situations…
As for fish not seeing the fly… I tried to remedy this problem alot of years ago when I tied the Copperhead Crab pattern… Its not gonna work 100% of the time, but they don’t ever “not see it”… they may spook, or they may kill it… but either way they react.
Granted i’m a little partial to my pattern, but basically what I’m saying is, try something a little brighter that will get them to see it… also, make sure and let the fish find the fly… in other words, lead them, and get the fly into their way… allow them to swim to it vs. trying to put it right in there on them… you’ll up your percentage alot by taking this approach…
As for topwater… yes it works… pretty well actually… but reds aren’t made to eat on top, and they will miss alot…
Good luck to you
Mad Mike
"to hell with insane… I’m OUTsane!!! "
Mike…thanks for the tips.
I’ve caught a fish or two on your Copperhead crab from CA (spooked a few as well). I’m also trying to do what you suggest and lead the fish more, let them come up on the fly and when I think it’s within their field of vision, just give it a little life.
If you can tell what direction the fish is feeding, how far do you try and lead him?
What I’m learning is that redfishing the flats on foot is a different game from chasing bones on a flat. I love bonefish, but the reds are much tougher due to the conditions, environment, water clarity, grass, etc. Probably why it’s so addicting because it really is an achievement when you start hooking them.
Bone… how far I lead a fish depends completely on the fish. After catching hundreds of fish in the grass and watching hundreds more do their thing up there Ive learned to read the fish’s body language. You can tell alot about a fish by watching him… I classify fish into different “types” of tailers, and have different names for them… I fish each one a little differently… For example:
1.) “The Digger”: This is that fish that is just flat out rooting around… his tail is in the air more than in the water and he’s oblivious to anything around him. this is a tough fish for that very reason. His movements are sporatic, and picking out his intent or direction is almost impossible. This is the one exception where I will try to drop the fly right in there with the fish… I’ll usually cast 2 or three feet past him and skitter the fly across the surface till its in his zone and just drop it… this is gonna be a 50/50 shot at best… but this is a tough fish to catch so thats not terrible odds really.
2.) “the Tipper”: This fish is moving pretty quick, but he stops regularly to “tip” his tail up and eat… this is a better fish, and a happy one. You can generally tell his direction well, and if you get a fly in front of him, he’s gonna eat. I’m gonna lead this fish pretty well to avoid spooking him with the fly hitting the water, and I’m gonna try and time the cast for when his tail is up. I will lead him about 5 feet in front, and 2 feet past… then I can strip the fly to adjust it so that it will be directly in his path… This fish will eat about 90% of the time if you do it right…
3.) “The Snake”: this fish is constantly moving. He’s not really tailing but he’s shallow enough that his tail and or back is always visible, making a snaking motion as he moves along. This fish can be a little tougher… While this fish is happy, he has his eyes up all the time… thise means you’ll have to lead him more. I’ll sometimes lead these fish 10 feet or so… and about 4 feet past. The good thing is that
quote:
Originally posted by Mad_MikeBone… how far I lead a fish depends completely on the fish. After catching hundreds of fish in the grass and watching hundreds more do their thing up there Ive learned to read the fish’s body language. You can tell alot about a fish by watching him… I classify fish into different “types” of tailers, and have different names for them… I fish each one a little differently… For example:
1.) “The Digger”: This is that fish that is just flat out rooting around… his tail is in the air more than in the water and he’s oblivious to anything around him. this is a tough fish for that very reason. His movements are sporatic, and picking out his intent or direction is almost impossible. This is the one exception where I will try to drop the fly right in there with the fish… I’ll usually cast 2 or three feet past him and skitter the fly across the surface till its in his zone and just drop it… this is gonna be a 50/50 shot at best… but this is a tough fish to catch so thats not terrible odds really.
2.) “the Tipper”: This fish is moving pretty quick, but he stops regularly to “tip” his tail up and eat… this is a better fish, and a happy one. You can generally tell his direction well, and if you get a fly in front of him, he’s gonna eat. I’m gonna lead this fish pretty well to avoid spooking him with the fly hitting the water, and I’m gonna try and time the cast for when his tail is up. I will lead him about 5 feet in front, and 2 feet past… then I can strip the fly to adjust it so that it will be directly in his path… This fish will eat about 90% of the time if you do it right…
3.) “The Snake”: this fish is constantly moving. He’s not really tailing but he’s shallow enough that his tail and or back is always visible, making a snaking motion as he moves along. This fish can be a little tougher… While this fish is happy, he h
Try an Umpqua Rattle Mullet, olive color. If you can get it in front of them, half will spook, the other half will hit at it and miss half the time. Occasionally you might actually hook one. Even a miss is fun though. I clearly remember one fish that was on the surface grabbing at it repeatedly as I stripped until his eyes got above the surface and he realized I was there, then it was like a toilet flush and he was gone. He was about 1 1/2 rod lengths away when he saw me.
Great info Mike! Thank you
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quote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherAnyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>Caught a nice one on the surface tonight on the Muddler Minnow that I mentioned. Switched over to a slow sink Pheasant Feather Crab that I tie and scored another. Only had an hour before the sun went down but the fish were plentiful and fat.
I feel like a new man after reading mikes info.
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tidewater '21
Oscar '10
Great info Mike thanks. I have witnessed all four examples. I have trouble getting all of them to eat though :). Getting better though. Slowly!
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quote:
Originally posted by iFlyquote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherAnyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>Caught a nice one on the surface tonight on the Muddler Minnow that I mentioned. Switched over to a slow sink Pheasant Feather Crab that I tie and scored another. Only had an hour before the sun went down but the fish were plentiful and fat.
Nice! Were you blind casting the muddler? Throwing at swirls?
I need to check the charts and see when I can get back on the flat again.
How long of a leader are y’all using? I have about 9 ft total with the last 2-3 feet being fluro. With the crappy water clarity, I wouldn’t think these fish would be leader shy and with all the other noises, I would also not think they’d be line-slap shy but then again, there’s some unknown reason I’m doing more stalking and casting than catching.
quote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherquote:Fish were feeding like pigs. Couple 'toilet flushes'. I just figured the likely path and lead the fish. So, when their heads come up, you push a little water and see if they follow. You can get deer hair flies to land pretty soft which is a plus. But, once on the water it can push a good wake, comparable to all the other bait pushes that were around me. I just use about 9' of leader. But, whatever YOU can throw the best is what I suggest. Glad, you starte
Originally posted by iFlyquote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherAnyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>Caught a nice one on the surface tonight on the Muddler Minnow that I mentioned. Switched over to a slow sink Pheasant Feather Crab that I tie and scored another. Only had an hour before the sun went down but the fish were plentiful and fat.
Nice! Were you blind casting the muddler? Throwing at swirls?
I need to check the charts and see when I can get back on the flat again.
How long of a leader are y’all using? I have about 9 ft total with the last 2-3 feet being fluro. With the crappy water clarity, I wouldn’t think these fish would be leader shy and with all the other noises, I would also not think they’d be line-slap shy but then again, there’s some unknown reason I’m doing more stalking and casting than catching.
Awesome read!!! Thanks, Mad Mike for sharing.
Yes, thanks for a nice read. & sharing info…
quote:
Originally posted by iFlyquote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherquote:Fish were feeding like pigs. Couple 'toilet flushes'. I just figured the likely path and lead the fish. So, when their heads come up, you push a little water and see if they follow. You can get deer hair flies to land pretty soft which is a plus. But, once on the water it can push a good wake,
Originally posted by iFlyquote:
Originally posted by bonecrusherAnyone have experience (good or bad) trying a top water popper type fly for reds on a flooded grass flat?
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>Caught a nice one on the surface tonight on the Muddler Minnow that I mentioned. Switched over to a slow sink Pheasant Feather Crab that I tie and scored another. Only had an hour before the sun went down but the fish were plentiful and fat.
Nice! Were you blind casting the muddler? Throwing at swirls?
I need to check the charts and see when I can get back on the flat again.
How long of a leader are y’all using? I have about 9 ft total with the last 2-3 feet being fluro. With the crappy water clarity, I wouldn’t think these fish would be leader shy and with all the other noises, I would also not think they’d be line-slap shy but then again, there’s some unknown reason I’m doing more stalking and casting than catching.
if the water in your flat is getting mid thigh deep… you need new flats man… thats way to deep…
Mad Mike
"to hell with insane… I’m OUTsane!!! "