quote:I have to ask... why is it good to put these things back?
To me it’s just a personal karma sort of thing, not saying it is wrong for you to do it, but it’s wrong for me. I like knowing they are out there where they belong for anyone to see who puts out the effort. It’s part of the scenery and the history of the marshes. Sort of like the eagles, I love seeing them in the wild but if you shot one and mounted it and hung it up in your living room, I wouldn’t be interested in seeing it at all. Does that make sense?
quote: If they're not removed from the water they're just going to corrode and disintegrate eventually. Why not remove them so they can be enjoyed by people instead of being crushed into dust?
On the Daws Island Heritage Preserve they have pottery and other artifacts dated at over 12,000 years old It doesn’t turn to dust in a short period of time.
See https://www.dnr.sc.gov/mlands/managedland?p_id=31
quote:As long as you're not trouncing around a Native American burial pile, I would think it's more irresponsible to leave history in the mud.
But how do you know what was a burial site? Most of the burial sites are now out in the marshes and in the creeks. 12,000 years is a long time. The sea level has changed a lot. The small islands they lived on constantly erode on one side and build up on the other, so the islands actually move over time. What was high ground 5,000 years ago could be creek bottom today. The pot
quote:An Indian didn't leave his pot sitting on the creek bank.
Just to keep this discussion going a bit more....not being critical either. I understand your point of view on putting stuff back, although I don't share it. To each his own on this subject, but how do you know how what an "Indian" did 12,000 years ago, where the creek bank was then, etc?
I like to show some of my finds to my parents. I get a pretty big kick out of their reaction. Stuff like, “How do you know that is real?” Why would a Native American just leave his tools there on the ground like that?" etc. Well, where else would he/she put it or take it?? I guess they think the “Indian” should’ve sold it on craigslist or something?
Regardless of how fast artifacts disintegrate, they will be completely gone one day. They should be preserved as best as possible for many people to see and understand, not just the people who are lucky enough and knowledgeable enough and passionate enough to go out and find them. I guarantee you if the cashier (old friend of mine) at a store near my house didn’t reach under the counter and pull out the handful of different points/knives/tools she found each week I’d have little interest to this day in learning as much as I can about it. I even tried my hand at percussion and pressure flaking to make my own points. I got reamed about that on the arrowheadology.com forum because they said it would end up in someone’s collection as the real McCoy. I was flattered they thought it looked good enough to be real.
quote: but how do you know how what an "Indian" did 12,000 years ago, where the creek bank was then, etc?
Not arguing, just discussing I’m pretty dang sure that the creek bank was not where it is today, because it’s not even in the same place it was a year ago, or 50 years ago, I do know that. And the 6 universities doing the digs on Daws have a pretty good idea of where the water level was back then. They are scientist, I’m not. I’m just guessing what an Indian might have done, but would you drop your shotgun, knife, pack and gear on the creek bank and leave it today? If you had to make it all by hand:question:
I’ve tried flaking those heads myself, and I mostly end up with a bunch of little flakes and no head Admire your patience if you can do that well. I wonder if the Indian villages had arrowhead makers, like a village blacksmith and traded them for fish, or each person made their own Something else to think about.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
I’m thinking knapping was a skill nearly every man and woman HAD to learn at a very young age. Especially in a small tribe. If you only had 20 people and one village blacksmith, who suddenly keeled over one day, things could go south for all in a hurry. Or what if all the men died and left only women and children? It was a basic survival skill. Sure, some were much better at it than others.
I’ve studied knapping a fair amount and by no means an expert or even what I would consider “good” at it - not by a long shot - but like anything else if you know a few basic things about it and follow some simple steps it isn’t too hard to knap out a very useful tool/point/whatever etc.
Here’s the ones I knapped from left to right is the progression. By the time I got to the last one I had tennis elbow and have not touched it since.
I find this discussion very interesting, and as is the case for me with many subjects, I see the merits of both points of view. Just because other’s have a different opinion doesn’t mean that feelings should get hurt. We all might learn something. Like Stump said, its amazing the amount of history we have in this area, from megalodon teeth, to indian, early european, revolutionary and civil wars, etc etc. Some of you might recall my son’s find of a clay pipe on Edisto Beach. We still have it. Coolest thing I’ve seen.
Blue - the points you have made are incredible. Very cool that you would have learned how to do that. I can’t imagine
Those are really good looking points, BR, look as good as many originals I’ve found. Do you use a deer antler to knap the chert? And do you heat treat it first?
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
Ones on the left were percussion flaked then I started experimenting with the antler on the smaller ones. That is where my elbow suffered - I’m sure it was my technique - or lack thereof! The material was debitage I picked up in the fields so I’d imagine a lot of it was heat treated by the natives themselves. I wasn’t trying to be too technical, just having fun learning a little. It was fun…I’d like to get more into it and get some better tools like an “ishi stick.”
If you want to read something interesting look online for Ishi, the last American Indian. A good read - but also sad.
It doesn’t turn to dust in a short period of time.
Something else to think about.
