So nobody reading this wants to offer or support positive solutions like aligning opening dates for co-occurring species or adjusting commercial possession limits to avoid extended closures and excessive Regulatory Discards?
I’m with ya, Freefish. I think aligning opening and closing dates on BSB, snapper and grouper is a great idea and would cut down significantly in wasted discards.
Sometimes it makes me downright sick releasing grouper and snapper just to watch the sharks and cudas eat them.
With offshore bottom fish, it would make more sense to me to eliminate size limits altogether. Most released fish never make it back to the bottom alive. Keep the first 10 fish over the rail, then go trolling or something. We could keep more and murder less. I hate seeing those fish get wasted because they were an inch short. Those laws don’t help the fishery a bit.
Thanks for doing what you do.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
freefish7, the SAFMC is troubled to it’s core. The only way to “fix” it is to abolish it and start over with something that models themselves like our local DNR. SAFMC has a “hammer” called “restrictions” and everything around them looks like a nail… It’s a shame that they do not understand that fisherman are not always the “bottleneck” in a fish stock. They fail to recognize the environment and man’s influence on the environment in many cases. It’s performance troubleshooting methodology 101 and they just don’t “get it”. And, they never will…
DNR uses a more balanced approach: reasonable regulations, reef building, education, habitat restoration, restocking, etc. Until SAFMC leverages technology and not just stupid theoretical equations with no history of accuracy, they are doomed to failure.
Cracker Larry, think back to your last bottom fishing trip. How many fish do you know for a fact died because of “discards”?
Now don’t get me wrong. I’ve pulled up behind the big head boats that have 50+ fishermen on them bailing vermilions and seen a handful of them float behind the boat. In the thousands of fished pulled up from the depths, I wouldn’t doubt a few dozen didn’t make it.
But that is a boat where the fisherman’s feet are 10ft from the water and they snatch them up and toss them back in. I’m talking about on your boat where the gunnels are 3 feet above the water and you pull them in and don’t have to wait 5 minutes for a mate to unhook it for you?
We SELDOM “vent”. If I had to guess, I would say that “floaters” are probably only around 1-2% on my boat in the areas that we bottom fish.
We don’t have to agree on size limits to agree on other issues like aligning the opening dates for co-occurring species. Aligning opening dates is a common-sense solution most open-minded fishermen and fishery managers should support. Many SAFMC members recognize the problems with how things have been done in the past and are asking us how we would like to see the council manage our fisheries in the future. We need to speak up during the council’s Visioning Project if we really want to change how the council does things. I am working closely with Dr. Duval on this project and looking for fishermen who would like to be part of the solution. Let me know if you would like to work together on the Visioning Project or just discuss it. I am also open to discussions on any other fishery issues.
quote:Sure, I can contribute, when do you start?
Originally posted by freefish7We don’t have to agree on size limits to agree on other issues like aligning the opening dates for co-occurring species. Aligning opening dates is a common-sense solution most open-minded fishermen and fishery managers should support. Many SAFMC members recognize the problems with how things have been done in the past and are asking us how we would like to see the council manage our fisheries in the future. We need to speak up during the council’s Visioning Project if we really want to change how the council does things. I am working closely with Dr. Duval on this project and looking for fishermen who would like to be part of the solution. Let me know if you would like to work together on the Visioning Project or just discuss it. I am also open to discussions on any other fishery issues.
I will set up a page on my website dedicated to the Visioning Project some time next week. We can share ideas and come up with some solutions most of us can agree on. My plan is to submit our “vision” in the form of public comments at the September SAFMC meeting. Thanks for your willingness to help.
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Cracker Larry, think back to your last bottom fishing trip. How many fish do you know for a fact died because of "discards"?
Somewhere between 25 and 50. Ate right in front of my eyes. Sometimes you’ve got to reel fast just to get them to the boat without getting ate. Throwbacks are instantly sucked up. Enough that we started putting the shorts and closed species in the live well and relocating them for release where the sharks and cuda are not. And hope we don’t get stopped with them in the live well.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
quote:That is not a discard and that doesn't happen on every trip. Don't be a part of the problem by putting misinformation out there. There are lots of people on this board that bottom fish and know that this is not a typical trip. If you are killing 25-50 fish by "accident" each time you go, then you should probably just stay at home.
Originally posted by Cracker Larryquote:
Cracker Larry, think back to your last bottom fishing trip. How many fish do you know for a fact died because of "discards"?
Somewhere between 25 and 50. Ate right in front of my eyes. Sometimes you’ve got to reel fast just to get them to the boat without getting ate. Throwbacks are instantly sucked up. Enough that we started putting the shorts and closed species in the live well and relocating them for release where the sharks and cuda are not. And hope we don’t get stopped with them in the live well.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
We all have had days when a few hungry cudas set up under the boat and wait for an easy meal to rise from the depths. A wize old fisherman taught me how to solve this. Hook up a freshly caught bottom fish with a large hook on wire (no need to bridle) and hook up the pain in the butt cuda. Let him run far away from the boat and lock the drag down and put the rod in a holder. Every other nearby cuda will follow and stay with the hookup.
quote:Indeed, my only point was that was not the "norm". Those days are very few and far between. Reps from SAFMC and local biologists read these boards. I know this for a fact. And we don't need to be fueling them with mis-information. The entire reason that red snapper is shut down is because of crap like this. They think discard mortality is 40% or some nonsense like that which is complete hogwash. You would have to have your hear pretty far up your ass to believe that. The bottom line is that if "dead discards" are common place for someone then they are mishandling fish.
Originally posted by natureboyWe all have had days when a few hungry cudas set up under the boat and wait for an easy meal to rise from the depths. A wize old fisherman taught me how to solve this. Hook up a freshly caught bottom fish with a large hook on wire (no need to bridle) and hook up the pain in the butt cuda. Let him run far away from the boat and lock the drag down and put the rod in a holder. Every other nearby cuda will follow and stay with the hookup.
It’s so easy to pop a fish off of a hook with a de-hooker and you never even have to bring him in the boat or touch them with your hands. 95% of the fish that we release rocket back to the bottom in the blink of an eye. Hell, red snapper especially. I have had them follow me up to my safety stop in 130’ feet of water on many days. They swam up there themselves more rapidly than me.
Have we ever had the hungry cudas under our boat? Yes, it’s happened a few times, but I am not dumb enough to sit in a spot and let cudas eat 50% of my catch. Either that cuda is going to go or I will just move to another spot. Same for sharks. If I am catching atlantic sharpnose, common sense kicks and I move…
Back when before headboats were regulated out of business a big gang of sharpnose sharks would really be costly for me. One day I stopped the Carolina Clipper in 90’ and all 50 on board hooked up sharpnose sharks . Before I could get everybody out of the water and relocate we’d lost close to 50 rigs. 16 oz Weight - 2 hooks and swivel $4 X 50 = $200 loss
Not only does the council monitor this forum - but the enviro groups do as well. What you say can and will be used against you.
Freefish7 - any word on how the vote is shaking out on the VMS matter? Last I heard it was not going to pass by only one vote. So many times in the past the council leaked info that a restriction would not pass and on vote day we get bad news. Just sent every vote another Email. I’m sure the enviros are hammering them hard!
Skinnee - We all have had many days when we didnt lose a single fish to a predator - or harm a short. In my many years on head boats, charters & fun fishing I really doubt we lost 10% all totaled.
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Don't be a part of the problem by putting misinformation out there. There are lots of people on this board that bottom fish and know that this is not a typical trip. If you are killing 25-50 fish by "accident" each time you go, then you should probably just stay at home.
Skinneej, I’ve been offshore fishing for over 50 years, and 30 years as a commercial and charter boat captain. I really don’t appreciate being called a liar by a keyboard expert microsoft technician weekend fisherman, or told to stay home. I think you’ve been in Miami too long and forgot your manners. How about we take up this discussion in person and you call me a liar to my face? I don’t waste time arguing with jerks on the Internet.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
quote:
In my many years on head boats, charters & fun fishing I really doubt we lost 10% all totaled.
I would agree that’s probably the average. Some days are better, some are worse. But that’s still a lot of fish.
quote:
Not only does the council monitor this forum - but the enviro groups do as well. What you say can and will be used against you.
I hope so, maybe they will learn something:smiley:
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
One more comment, I was asked specifically by the expert…
quote:
Cracker Larry, think back to your last bottom fishing trip. How many fish do you know for a fact died because of "discards"?
On my last bottom fishing trip, which I gave an honest answer and was called a liar for replying, the only species open was red grouper. We were fishing in 100’ of water and caught 200 sea bass, 50 red snapper, 20 gag grouper and a lot of short red grouper to reach our limit of legal red grouper. This means we released 300 fish to keep 12. Even at a 10% mortality we killed 42 fish to get legal limit in the boat. The mortality was much higher than 10%, and yes computer man, we moved a dozen times. Thanks for that advice, never would have thought of that myself.
I don’t have to know for a fact how many of them died. Some flop on the surface and a sea bird eats them, some the cudas and sharks get, there isn’t any way to know how many the amberjack, cobia and goliaths eat in the deeper depths, but I’m sure we are loosing a lot of fish.
If all the species opened and closed at the same time there would be a lot less waste. I’m dang sure of that.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
I don’t think I would have told that one. At the Sept SAFMC meetings about new MPA’s, those in favor of closures will probably be passing out copies of this post. This post will hurt the cause. You will be the new poster child for type 1 MPA’s Not doubting your word - but perhaps this was a day you should have stayed home. I dont think I would have told that one!!!
I dont mind limits be it size or quantity,but i am absolutely 100 % against any closures…
The problem is, the SAFMC is not sure how to go about their job. So they look here and there and make a guess. They have no clue what the actual numbers are to the sepcies populations and who or what is actually fishing for them.
What Cracker Larry is explaining and everyone needs to understand is the fact that because of the regulations we have much more waste than need be. If one considers that we only track the number of legal catches and the assumption that all releases live, is simplistic. We need to be made aware of the waste and the council needs to find that balance between the catches and the discard waste. If we can determine the best method to keep however many fish we get without wasting fish, the resource will be better managed.
I think that if the seasons are better aligned, the waste will be less. If we can provide a better method of keeping fish, beit size, numbers or a combination and that the seasons align, there will be much less waste due to discards and mortality. For example, how many fish have been lost simply due hooks being swallowed - what a waste.
The SAFMC needs to take a look at the hunting side of things. How is it that the states, and hunters managed to save the wild turkey, the alligator, and many other species to which hunters and now have a sustainable poplulation.
If such species such as the BSB are over populating the reefs, guess what - other species will decline and disappear. It ALL has to be managed.
Simply determining that they need to close down the ocean and monitor the legal fisherman is not the answer. How many Chinese fishing boats will come over here and get VMS?
Sea Hunt BX22 Br
WS Tarpon 140
Very thoughtful - but reality is that from Lubenchenco - Crabtree and to council level the enviro adjenda is in play. Its not as much about fishery management as appeasement of interest groups. The plan is to close the ledge. Most of it anyway. Chinese boats can not and never have fished in the SAFMC EEZ.