quote:
Larry, if you don’t know much then I am a Certified D.A.
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>You’ve never given me that impression.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Swamp Worshiper
Well, I know a couple of things I suppose. I think Will Rogers hit the nail on the head when he said, “Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.”
If you’re lucky enough to be fishing, you’re lucky enough.
quote:
Originally posted by jughedFact - the sun rises and sets.
Belief - my god can do anything.
You are trying to use a fact to prove a point about your belief - and it fails.
Your belief is NOT FACT for everyone else.
Facts are for everyone, equal to everyone. Beliefs are personal, and should be kept that way.
Back to why I made my point:
You claim the video’s beat the theory of natural mutations to a pulp. I pose the argument of our entire species coming from 8 individuals - according the word of your God - and the speed in which massive genetic mutations had to have occurred.
If you belive in the story of Noah and the bible as the word of god, then you must believe in rapid human mutation. The only way around this belief is to go to the stand by “god is all powerful” and “you simply can’t understand.” And that is pure speculation and not fact in any way shape or form.
Fact = God is real.
Belief = You don’t believe in God.
Just because you don’t accept the proof that God is real, doesn’t mean it’s not fact. There is more proof that Jesus Christ existed than Napoleon.
“Rapid Mutation”… Ha ha ha!!!
You think it’s funny for me to believe that an entire species diversified from 8 individuals, but you believe that the entire species evolved from ONE!!! Or did someone tell you that these “mutations” such as growing an eyeball happened to thousands of specimens all over the globe all at once? How is ONE specimen going to undergo a mutation and then spread that mutation to the entire gene pool? Patient X was born with an extra toe today and in 10,000 years every human will have an extra toe, because somehow it makes us more fit to survive!!!
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:
Originally posted by jughedFact - the sun rises and sets.
Belief - my god can do anything.
You are trying to use a fact to prove a point about your belief - and it fails.
Your belief is NOT FACT for everyone else.
Facts are for everyone, equal to everyone. Beliefs are personal, and should be kept that way.
Back to why I made my point:
You claim the video’s beat the theory of natural mutations to a pulp. I pose the argument of our entire species coming from 8 individuals - according the word of your God - and the speed in which massive genetic mutations had to have occurred.
If you belive in the story of Noah and the bible as the word of god, then you must believe in rapid human mutation. The only way around this belief is to go to the stand by “god is all powerful” and “you simply can’t understand.” And that is pure speculation and not fact in any way shape or form.
Fact = God is real.
Belief = You don’t believe in God.
Just because you don’t accept the proof that God is real, doesn’t mean it’s not fact. There is more proof that Jesus Christ existed than Napoleon.
“Rapid Mutation”… Ha ha ha!!!
You think it’s funny for me to believe that an entire species diversified from 8 individuals, but you believe that the entire species evolved from ONE!!! Or did someone tell you that these “mutations” such as growing an eyeball happened to thousands of specimens all over the globe all at once? How is ONE specimen going to undergo a mutation and then spread that mutation to the entire gene pool? Patient X was born with an extra toe today and in 10,000 years every human will have an extra toe, because some
quote:
Originally posted by jughedWell that’s a completely rational argument that’s void of any speculation and made up B.S…
As opposed to yours? Please tell me all about the evolution. Tell me about how animals evolved the eyeball. I want to know which came first: the retina? the rods? the cones? the optic nerve? the cavity in which the eye sits? the cornea? the pupil? maybe it was the iris? Please tell me about how something as complex as the human eye evolved over time be a series of “random” mutations. I can’t wait to hear this explanation. And when you are done, please tell us how the brain evolved to process the BILLIONS of data points received up the optic nerve from the eye, and how did the optic nerve evolved to be the perfect conduit, and be perfectly wired into the brain to act as a super network so the brain can put together a visual image of the surroundings, based on billions of data points. You know, the brain that can process more transactions in a split second than even the most powerful supercomputers on Earth. Remember, it was all by “random mutation”.
I’ll be right back. Need to put enough popcorn in the microwave. I know that Cracker Larry is going to want some too. 
I know it’s a Wiki page, but it is heavily cited with articles to back up what it written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
15’ Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro
Skinneej:
Excellent points.
The systems you pointed out also have a HUGE difference in complexity: many of them are self-repairing (or closed-loop) engineering systems.
The degree of complexity between a closed-loop system (self-repairing) vs. an open looped system are incredible.
Can your wrist watch repair itself? No. Yet, the wrist holding the wrist watch can repair itself in many ways.
We refuse to believe that millions of years ago, due to some unusual mix of lightning, vulcanism, tectonic shifting of plates, that the wrist watch “evolved” from some primordial goo. There “Had” to be a designer.
Nevertheless, it is mathematically FAR more likely for the wrist watch to have “evolved” than the wrist holding the watch.
Puzzling too . . . how do dead creatures evolve?
illigitimi non-carborundum . . .
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:
Originally posted by jughedWell that’s a completely rational argument that’s void of any speculation and made up B.S…
As opposed to yours? Please tell me all about the evolution. Tell me about how animals evolved the eyeball. I want to know which came first: the retina? the rods? the cones? the optic nerve? the cavity in which the eye sits? the cornea? the pupil? maybe it was the iris? Please tell me about how something as complex as the human eye evolved over time be a series of “random” mutations. I can’t wait to hear this explanation. And when you are done, please tell us how the brain evolved to process the BILLIONS of data points received up the optic nerve from the eye, and how did the optic nerve evolved to be the perfect conduit, and be perfectly wired into the brain to act as a super network so the brain can put together a visual image of the surroundings, based on billions of data points. You know, the brain that can process more transactions in a split second than even the most powerful supercomputers on Earth. Remember, it was all by “random mutation”.
I’ll be right back. Need to put enough popcorn in the microwave. I know that Cracker Larry is going to want some too.
Eyeballs, nutballs, taints… I don’t know - and don’t claim to know where any of them came from… You are making assumptions about what others think… hence why I said your argument is made up B.S.
I take full comfort in knowing we may never understand who/how/why/where we came and our surroundings came from. We are not yet smart enough, or have the abil
quote:This article mentions the "Cambrian Explosion" which was an incredibly short time period where all of the major phyla (body types) on earth suddenly appear in the same fossil record. It's actually VERY problematic for Darwin's theory who described evolution as a tree evolving upwards from one common ancestor. The Cambrian fossil record shows that all major phyla show up suddenly in a geographically short period of time.
Originally posted by xmanI know it’s a Wiki page, but it is heavily cited with articles to back up what it written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
15’ Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro
http://www.darwinsdilemma.org/pdf/faq.pdf
Also, video #1 in this series cover’s this very well!!! Again, anyone interested in this thread would be pretty interested in the videos!!!
quote:I'm not making assumptions about what "evolutionists" think. If you are not an evolutionist, then fine, but I am making an argument not based on what you personally think, but a whole class of scientists. So, it's not B.S.
Originally posted by jughedEyeballs, nutballs, taints… I don’t know - and don’t claim to know where any of them came from… You are making assumptions about what others think… hence why I said your argument is made up B.S.
That’s like you not believing that the sun rises, and then I tell you that the earth rotates around the sun and you say, “You don’t know that I believe therefore your argument is BS”? Really? The earth rotating around the sun is somehow dependent on what you believe and I have to have a full understanding of your personal beliefs to be able to have a logical discussion? No, actually THAT is what is B.S.
quote:Well God is the cause. We just understand the creator's design a little bit better. If I gave you a tv and you dissected it and you finally understood how it works, does that mean that the tv wasn't designed or "caused" by someone else? That's silly. It just means that you were smart enough to learn more about the design.
Originally posted by jughedNot so long a go you could trade your example of the eye for things like wind, tide, earthquakes, weather… we didn’t understand those either, and we assigned a god as the cause.
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:This article mentions the "Cambrian Explosion" which was an incredibly short time period where all of the major phyla (body types) on earth suddenly appear in the same fossil record. It's actually VERY problematic for Darwin's theory who described evolution as a tree evolving upwards from one common ancestor. The Cambrian fossil record shows that all major phyla show up suddenly in a geographically short period of time.
Originally posted by xmanI know it’s a Wiki page, but it is heavily cited with articles to back up what it written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
15’ Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro
http://www.darwinsdilemma.org/pdf/faq.pdf
Also, video #1 in this series cover’s this very well!!! Again, anyone interested in this thread would be pretty interested in the videos!!!
Cambrian explosion dilemma isn’t really that big of a problem for evolution. Evolution happened approximately 5 times faster than the accepted rate during the Cambrian Explosion, which isn’t some fast let-there-be-light moment that evolution opponents want to portray. After all, it was over 20-30 million years.
New studies show that pre Cambrian explosion, planet was relatively devoid of oxygen and nutrients. During Cambrian Explosion, plates moved far enough away, exposed mineral/oxygen rich magma, and covered a lot of the world in shallow pools of nutrient rich water. Basically there was a cradle of life, with very little competition, which according to evolution theory, would create an accelerated explosion.
All the film is doing is poking ho
quote:That's not true. They do not mention God in any of the videos. It's a theory that has a pretty solid logical argument. Darwin's theory of natural selection is just a theory as well. Why should it be taught in schools and no other alternative theories be allowed to be taught?
Originally posted by EdistodanielThat being said, intelligent design is really just an attempt to integrate religion into science. They should be separate, and absolutely not taught in schools.
The only reason why Darwin’s theory has any merit with scientists is because they first assume that a creator\designer does not exist, and then based on that assumption they THEN look for some plausible mechanism. Instead, they should be objective as science dictates and look at all evidence with an open mind. I think that if they did that, the evidence for design far outweighs the theory of random mutation.
quote:
Originally posted by Bottom ScratcherIntelligent Design?
How to approach this question “scientifically” . . .
This is a two part discussion.
- If you go to the NASA.gov website & poke around, NASA claims the universe (as we presently know it) is approximately 13.5 billion years old.
If you accept that number, the next question is: how many seconds are there in 13.5 billion years?
For those who like to examine “the facts” under their personal “microscopes” (which is fine, you are not supposed to believe a word I say anyway), you better have a BIG calculator for the answer.
The answer, (in scientific notation because the number is so large) is about 10 to 18th power. Or, the number 10 with 18 zeros after the ten. A BIG number - the number of seconds in 13.5 billion years. Remember that number - 10 to the 18th - the number of seconds in 13.5 billion years.
So where is this going, and what does this possibly have to do with evolution or intelligent design?
- One day, a few years ago, when my family was still homeschooling our kids, I came home (no one was home at the time), and found hundreds of black and white beads scattered all over our kitchen floor. I figured the admiral (my wife) had taken our “■■■■■” to the local library for some research. In her absence, I decided to pick up the beads. Instead of putting the beads into bags, I decided to put the beads on a string - sort of a “necklace” of black and white beads. 347 beads later, I was done.
Huh?
After looking at the now completed necklace, I noticed that there seemed to be a pattern to the random beads on the string. The last merit badge in my old Boy Scout days was my most difficult - the Communications Merit Badge. In the “old days” I had to not only build my own telegraph key, but I had to memorize the Morse Code and send & receive a Morse coded message in a certain amou
quote:Well, 20-30 million years is the blink of an eye for an "evolutionist". Scientists believe that the horseshoe crab hasn't changed in 445 million years. So you think that pretty much the entire darwinian tree exploded in 20 million years, yet the horseshoe crab hasn't evolved in 445 million is plausible? What are the chances that literally every other species on the planet evolved except for this one? How many TRILLIONS of coin tosses would it take?
Originally posted by EdistodanielAfter all, it was over 20-30 million years.
Great discussion guys - sorry, had to deal with a plugged sink trap - a teaching moment for one of my teenage sons - HA!!
Puzzling . . . all these millions of years, and the accidentalists haven’t “evolved” a self-cleaning sink trap.
Oh well.
Interestingly, life as we may know is a little more complex mathematically than we may appreciate.
Ever hear of the Fibonacci sequence?
In 1180AD, an Italian mathematician named Leonardo Fibonacci discovered a strange sequence of numbers that have since attracted the attention of many perceptive observers:
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, etc., etc.
Each number is the sum of the previous two. It turns out that the ratio of any adjacent numbers approximates (1 + 5())/2 = 1.618.
It would be several hundred years before these sequences would be broadly recognized in nature.
In flowers, for example, the lily has 3 petals; the yellow violet, 5; delphinium, 8; mayweed, 13; aster, 21; pyrethrum, 34; helenium, 55; and the Michaelmas daisy, 89 - all Fibonacci numbers!
In the study of phyllotaxis (the spiral arrangement of leaves around a plant’s stem), the leaves of the elm are arranged at 1/2 circumference; the beech and hazel, 1/3; the apricot and oak, 2/5; the pear and poplar, 3/8; the almond and willow, 5/13; pines, 5/21 or 13/34; etc. In a review of 434 Angiospermae and 44 Gymnospermae, all of these involve Fibonacci numbers!
It turns out that this maximizes their exposure to sunlight and air without shading or crowding from other leaves.
What an accident . . .
But wait, there is more . . .
In the study of seeds, the rows of bracts on pine cones are 8 and 13; pineapples, 8, 13, and 21; etc. It turns out that the optimum divergence angle of 137.5 degrees produces the best packing. That’s why you see Fibonacci spirals in the seed heads (sunflowers, etc.) Even the management of Amazon would be amazed!!!
All of this by random chance - no designer. Hmmmm. Someone has more faith than I do.
illi
quote:"Someone has more faith than I do" - So true!
Originally posted by Bottom ScratcherAll of this by random chance - no designer. Hmmmm. Someone has more faith than I do.
Hold on poke:
I will try to get a picture of it loaded. This may take a while. I am the dim bulb in the chandelier.
Ugh.
illigitimi non-carborundum . . .
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/500/print/
bottomscratch,you really should give credit to the person who writes this stuff.
No problem . . .
http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o723/bottomscratcher/necklace_zpsskcjtuc7.jpg
illigitimi non-carborundum . . .
Now you just need to know your Morse code to figure out the “accident”
Oh, start where the chopstick is pointing and read counterclockwise . . .