My attraction as far as age group goes changed (changes) through the years. I probably liked 13yr old XXXX when I was 13/15, then I gradually grew up and found the 20s more attractive, and now I’m in my late 30s and I’m attracted to the more mature XXXXs.
What hasn’t changed though is the XXXX - that refers to the type - Caucasian women or Hispanic women or black women. What this means is, as I was always attracted to Caucasian women and I’ve never been, to this day attracted to a Chinese or Indian woman. Likewise, if I were gay, I can say I was attracted to black men (for example), and perhaps you’d hear me say “in my 20s I liked black men my age but now I’m attracted to black men in their 40s” versus saying “oh I used to be attracted to black men in my 20s but am now attracted to Brazilian men in my 30s”. I also don’t think it’s because we are exposed to people from that particular race or color.
The analogy I could give is - all my life I’ve been “attracted” to 4 door sedans. That never changed. What changed though is I probably was attracted to leather seats inside and am no longer now, or, I used to like a spoiler and don’t care for one now, etc.
That's a fair argument. So do you think that it is genetic (i.e. "born that way") that you are not attracted to Chinese women? Is there a gene for each combination ("attracted to Caucasian gene", "attracted to Indian gene", "attracted to Chinese gene", etc?). Certainly that would explain what you are saying at a conceptual level...
Let me propose this… Let’s say that as a young child (hmmmm… 1 year old… Your family moved to China. You grew up in a small province and you literally never came across anything but Chinese women until you were 15 years old. Do you honestly t
Oh yes! I would’ve been attracted only to Chinese women, to a point where I think even if I came to the States and was in a harem full of blonde Caucasian Victoria’s Secret models, I’d still be attracted only to Chinese girls.
But what it doesn’t explain is why some people are gay - my best friend’s brother is gay. They’re both from China btw, and both grew up in identical family environments. And my friend said that he “knew” his brother was “odd” from a very early age (wasn’t into outdoor games, sucked at throwing or catching a ball, the typical things that we’d call “a girlie boy”), and only growing up and reaching maturity did my friend realize that his brother wasn’t “odd”, but gay. And of course, we’re all very accepting of it.
Another interesting this is this Indian friend I know - he’s quite conservative and lost his virginity in his late 20s (in the US). But he said even growing up, he was never attracted to Indian women. He used Playboy those days to jerk off and after coming to the US, slept only with white women, and is now married to one and has 2 kids! So it’s funny - just because he grew up in India and was surrounded only by Indian women, you’d think that he’d be attracted to them primarily but that wasn’t the case.
The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that outside of whether sexual orientation/preferences are by birth/DNA or a product of the environment we live in, I don’t think the age factor has anything to do with it.
I’ve also always wanted to ask (totally off topic) - having worked for Microsoft and having traveled to India and Australia, how have you reacted when you happen to meet someone who’s gay?
I like to look at it as trial and error. If you were once attracted to 13y olds as most of us once were, but you learned over the years that they are not what you want anymore because of any number of reasons, and you now are attracted to much more mature women for obvious reasons. It is just way more beneficial in every way and you learn that as you go along. I don’t think you can lump the decisions we make into just 2 categories. You could however say that since your decisions are made because of lessons learned that it does fall into the nurture category, even if a lot of it is personal experience.
“Apathy is the Glove into Which Evil Slips It’s Hand”.
In India, heavily closeted. It’s changing now. The worst situation is in the Middle East where it’s a crime and you can carry a death sentence. Infact, there was a story of a Saudi Arabian royal family member who was charged because he killed his gay lover. The charge wasn’t because he killed a man, but because he was gay!
In the middle east, it’s heavily closeted and hypocritical as well. A lot of the expats there (particularly Filipinos) who come there as “construction workers” are “friends” to some of the local Arabs
quote:This subject is better suited to cold weather months. Lets fish
I thought it was beat to death last winter. Just for the record, I’m pretty sure you are born that way. I’ve never got a Boooing from looking at a guy, 6 or 60.
Yall need to go fishing, or if you can’t fish I’ve got a boat that needs sanding
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
Skinnee, where you going with this and what do you look to prove or disprove?
At 13 I had recently learned about self pleasure and wanted desperately to involve it with a girl, then I was basically raped by a 16 year old girl. Never looked back and now after 20+ years of marriage my wife and I still enjoy pleasing each other. Never once considered gratification with a male and can not understand the sexual desire for one man with another man. I kind of think that men that hook up with other men are just too lazy or deviant to make a commitment with a lady.
quote:Originally posted by Fred67
I kind of think that men that hook up with other men are just too lazy or deviant to make a commitment with a lady.
No. There are some things that just don't have explanations for everything - no wonder they're called minorities or anomalies. Has nothing to do with laziness.
Oh yes! I would’ve been attracted only to Chinese women, to a point where I think even if I came to the States and was in a harem full of blonde Caucasian Victoria’s Secret models, I’d still be attracted only to Chinese girls.
But what it doesn’t explain is why some people are gay - my best friend’s brother is gay. They’re both from China btw, and both grew up in identical family environments. And my friend said that he “knew” his brother was “odd” from a very early age (wasn’t into outdoor games, sucked at throwing or catching a ball, the typical things that we’d call “a girlie boy”), and only growing up and reaching maturity did my friend realize that his brother wasn’t “odd”, but gay. And of course, we’re all very accepting of it.
Another interesting this is this Indian friend I know - he’s quite conservative and lost his virginity in his late 20s (in the US). But he said even growing up, he was never attracted to Indian women. He used Playboy those days to jerk off and after coming to the US, slept only with white women, and is now married to one and has 2 kids! So it’s funny - just because he grew up in India and was surrounded only by Indian women, you’d think that he’d be attracted to them primarily but that wasn’t the case.
The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was that outside of whether sexual orientation/preferences are by birth/DNA or a product of the environment we live in, I don’t think the age factor has anything to do with it.
I don’t think age has much to do with it either. The only reason that I used the age is because it is the same person at two different points in their lives. Something that pretty much each of us can relate to. I think most of us could understand that we found 13 year old girls highly desirable at one poin
I’ve also always wanted to ask (totally off topic) - having worked for Microsoft and having traveled to India and Australia, how have you reacted when you happen to meet someone who’s gay?
No different. A human is a human. I don't dislike gay people. I hadn't even mentioned gays in this thread until now.
Note that there is a big difference between debating with what someone believes about genetics, versus discriminating against them.
quote:This subject is better suited to cold weather months. Lets fish
I thought it was beat to death last winter. Just for the record, I’m pretty sure you are born that way. I’ve never got a Boooing from looking at a guy, 6 or 60.
Yall need to go fishing, or if you can’t fish I’ve got a boat that needs sanding
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
They say that the most important time in a child's development is from 0 to 5 years old. Do you remember any "boings" you got when you were 2 years old?
The “born that way” crowd always tries to draw from an example of something in their adult life, but I find that kind of silly since most of our lives were molded at a VERY early age, typically before we remember.
I do remember this… I remember as a kid finding playboys in my dad’s garage. I remember being fascinated by them. I remember that from the earliest age, my family unit was comprised of a man and a woman. I also remember growing up that the worst thing you could call another 12 year old was a “fag”, and you would go out of your way to make sure you didn’t do ANYTHING that would make you look like a “fag”. If two kids did anything resembling gay behavior, they were ridiculed by the rest of the class sometimes for years! I also remember being brought up in an environment where it was taught that men marry women, and boys do not kiss other boys. I also remember that when I had a friend who was a female (even as a 5 year old) parents rewarding you for having
Skinnee, where you going with this and what do you look to prove or disprove?
Here is what we know about sexuality and attraction:
<> Attraction to 13 year old: Not born that way.
<> Child Sexual predators = Not born that way
<> Rapist: Not born that way.
<> Prisoners doing life: Not born that way
<> Attraction to other cultures: Not born that way.
<> Attraction to blondes, brunettes, red heads. Not born that way.
<> S&M fetish: Not born that way.
<> Attraction to member of the same sex: ???
On the last one, we cannot agree on… Hmmm… There seems to be a pattern emerging, but we just can’t seem to nail it down…
Also, I do not intend to offend anyone on this thread. This thread is only about a logical debate on the scientific aspect of sexual attraction. Nothing more, nothing less… There is no intent to group any of these groups together or say that anyone is better or worse than another. I am only interested in proving\disproving from a logical perspective where sexual attraction originates.
I view all human beings as equal in the eyes of God and love all humans. And I believe a person is defined by who they are, not what they do in the bedroom.
That being said, I think early childhood development plays a HUGE role in the outcome of someone’s sexuality. There is plenty of evidence to support this. Take for example a child molester. I have NEVER heard of a child molester who wasn’t himself molested at an early age. I don’t think any of us would say, “Hey, it must be a child molestation gene causing him to be born that way”.
Probably... I wouldn't know. But as far as sexual orientation goes, I don't think it has anything to do with childhood development at all. Because, as I said, I personally know of brothers Mr.A and mr.B who grew up in the same home, about 1-2 yrs apart and Mr.A turned out "straight" and Mr.B turned out "gay". I've always said that finding the explanation to this will be harder than finding the cure for cancer! :)
Also, I do not intend to offend anyone on this thread. This thread is only about a logical debate on the scientific aspect of sexual attraction. Nothing more, nothing less… There is no intent to group any of these groups together or say that anyone is better or worse than another. I am only interested in proving\disproving from a logical perspective where sexual attraction originates.
I view all human beings as equal in the eyes of God and love all humans. And I believe a person is defined by who they are, not what they do in the bedroom.
Well said, and I don't think anyone takes it/took it that way so you're sorted! :)
quote:Originally posted by skinneej
I also remember being brought up in an environment where it was taught that men marry women, and boys do not kiss other boys.
Which is how it is in the majority of the world, in most cultures. So I agree with you on the above.
However I would like to respectfully disagree with you on the lines below. By “disagree” I’m not questioning the validity of your statements below. I’m saying that they don’t influence sexuality. Like you, I too didn’t have any (openly) gay members in my family, and neither did my friend’s bro who turned out gay. We all had strong father figures in our respective families, etc. etc. So a lot of the family enviroment applies to a gay person as well and yet they turn out gay!
quote:Originally posted by skinneej
I didn’t have any gays in my family. I doubt I even met a kid that was gay until high school and even then, that kid was not openly gay. We all just assumed he was gay because he was effeminate.
Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that from a VERY YOUNG age, most of us were molded\conditioned to have views about men and women and sex for that matter. I’ve been conditioned so well, that the thought of two gay men together makes me very uncomfortable and sick to my stomach.
What about people who didn’t have a strong father figure in their pre-teen lives?
quote:Originally posted by skinneej
- What about people who had other gays in the family where it was accepted and "normal"?
<hr height="1" nosha
That being said, I think early childhood development plays a HUGE role in the outcome of someone’s sexuality. There is plenty of evidence to support this. Take for example a child molester. I have NEVER heard of a child molester who wasn’t himself molested at an early age. I don’t think any of us would say, “Hey, it must be a child molestation gene causing him to be born that way”.
Probably... I wouldn't know. But as far as sexual orientation goes, I don't think it has anything to do with childhood development at all. Because, as I said, I personally know of brothers Mr.A and mr.B who grew up in the same home, about 1-2 yrs apart and Mr.A turned out "straight" and Mr.B turned out "gay". I've always said that finding the explanation to this will be harder than finding the cure for cancer! :)
Everyone responds to their surrounding environment in different ways. One might turn out to be a football star and the other a "goth". One might be a successful businessman and the other live with his parents for eternity. That doesn't mean they were "born that way". People just develop differently and respond to external stimuli and influences differently. I bet you can name many more families where one kid made something out of their lives and the other was a complete failure.
I know kids from gay parents and they are as straight as an arrow! LOL!
Sure, we all know that story! I'm not saying it takes a gay parent to make a gay child. I'm just saying that there are probably thousands of influences in our lives that make a difference on who we are and what we become.
