quote:Oh yes, agree! But for sexual orientation, there are very few cases where the reason why so-and-so turned out gay have been scientifically proved.
Originally posted by skinneejquote:Sure, we all know that story! I'm not saying it takes a gay parent to make a gay child. I'm just saying that there are probably thousands of influences in our lives that make a difference on who we are and what we become.
Originally posted by jamesbluntI know kids from gay parents and they are as straight as an arrow! LOL!
Skinneej, your wrong on one count. I was born with an attraction to Blonds. brunette’s and red heads:wink:
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Originally posted by skinneejSome people believe that your sexuality and sexual preferences are baked into your DNA, that is you were “born with” certain genes that give you absolute tendencies with regards to sexual attraction. You are either attracted to “A” or you or not attracted to “A” because you were born that way. No grey area. Genetics…
I have a question. When you were 13 years old, you were sexually attracted to other 13 year olds. Hopefully, nowadays, the thought of having sex with a 13 year old repulses and disgusts you. Why is that? Did your genetics change? Or did you make a “choice” one day that you were not going to be sexually attracted to 13 year olds anymore? If your DNA changed, how did that happen? Was it a bite from a genetically modified spider in Peter Parker’s father’s labratory? Or was your “choice” something you pondered over for days on end? At what age did you make the choice? And, can you explain your thought process? Surely these are the only two options. You were either born that way, or you made a conscious “choice”. That is what I am told about sexuality. The problem is, I don’t think my own DNA has changed and I don’t ever recall making a choice not to be sexually attracted to 13 year old girls any more. Though the thought of it disgusts me, repulses me, and seems pretty sickening. How is that possible given that neither of those options were executed?
Let’s discuss…
Simple - when you turned “13” did you choose what sex turned you on? Did you make a decision to like women, or did you just like women?
For me and most honest men I know - there was no choice - it was pre programmed into our brains. By what force, I don’t know. But it was 100% natural…
The gay men I know say the exact same thing - there was no choice - they liked o
jughed, you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I don’t have an “age theory”… How do you know what traits you were “born with”? Just because you don’t know how something developed doesn’t mean you were “born with” it. That’s the whole point of my discussion… Using the word “choice” versus “born with it” is a FALSE DILEMMA…
Were people born to be competitive, selfish, liars, rich, poor, ambitious, honest, fair, judgmental, crazy, happy, depressed, etc?
Take depression for instance… According to your “theory”, someone would either have to be BORN depressed or CHOOSE to be depressed. Is that really the only option? Hell no! Some people slipped into depression over time and have no explanation. Some can pinpoint a specific event which made them depressed (that still wasn’t a “CHOICE”)…
Also, it’s laughable that ‘gay men’ are supposed to be experts on their own sexual development… They have no clue… They just don’t remember what made them the way they are… Do I think latinas are hot? Yes. Did I choose that? I don’t remember making a choice to decide, “you know what, today I will start thinking latinas are hot”… Was I born that way? It’s hard to conceive since I don’t have any Hispanic blood in my family… At some point in my life, I developed an attraction to latinas. I doubt I was that way as a young child, and have no clue as to why I find them super hot… It just happened. Gay men do not know why they like other men any more than I understand why I like latinas. Being gay doesn’t make them a child development expert any more than it makes me an expert on why I developed an attraction to latin women.
Again, ONE MORE TIME… I have never believed that it is a “CHOICE”… The word “CHOICE” is used to create a false dilemma. A false dilemmas is a form to manipulate people that are not smart enough to recognize when they are being presented a false dilemma…
Your example about “12 being icky” is EXACTLY more support for my theory of “no gay gene”… Over ye
quote:That's true for all of us - gay, straight, bi, everyone.
Originally posted by skinneej Also, it's laughable that 'gay men' are supposed to be experts on their own sexual development... They have no clue...
quote:Yes, agree 100%...
Originally posted by jamesbluntquote:That's true for all of us - gay, straight, bi, everyone.
Originally posted by skinneej Also, it's laughable that 'gay men' are supposed to be experts on their own sexual development... They have no clue...
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Originally posted by skinneej [br I view all human beings as equal in the eyes of God and love all humans. And I believe a person is defined by who they are, not what they do in the bedroom.
and I thought you were just a cold blooded honky, seems you might have a heart.
Skinneej, no doubt a man or woman is defined by who they are and what they do. Just seems that the gay community wants so bad for the rest of society to accept what they do in the bedroom, a lot fail to just let society accept them for what they contribute back to society. Not all gays, but the majority. Hey look at me!! I’m Queer! I’m here! now accept me!! no, I’ll tolerate you, but never accept you. Acceptance means that it is normal, it is not normal.
You think Bolbie likes men, women, or both? 
Just ribbing you Bolbie. Beer offer is still there.
Who’s Bolbie?
quote:What is "normal" in your view?
Originally posted by Fred67 Acceptance means that it is normal, it is not normal.
You post seems to suggest that sexual preference is molded into us as toddlers and or we choose our preference. Having been raised in a large family of siblings and cousins and seeing one child exert gay tendencies from age 1-1/2; I have to agree with the DNA theory. I can remember my grandmother mentioning how different this child was prior to any nurturing or molding by the parents. To feel comfortable about having a gay relative; I did quite a bit of research and found that science supports being born with gay DNA. One of the more common explanations involves there being twins or triplets of different sexes at conception. For one reason or another; one or more fetuses perish and are absorbed into the remaining fetus. You now have duplex sexual characteristics. From this situation, the remaining fetus can have male genitals and female brain DNA or vice versa. There are many variations of conception and pregnancy that can lead to abnormalities in the womb and we can not look at the outcome as being chosen. Do kids choose to be born deformed or with ailments like autism? I challenge you to do some research on your own and you may be able to understand the “born with” theory and develop a little compassion.
I do believe that some gays have chosen the lifestyle because of disappointments with making normal relations work. They may be lazy. However; on the whole; gay lifestyle is not a choice. There is no way most gays would choose the ridicule and disgust put upon them by society.
Your 13 year old discussion has no relationship to the sexual preference discussion as you are asking a straight person whether they continue to see 13 year olds as exciting after they have matured. This is all about maturing; not choosing or changing DNA.
quote:Ha, I seriously doubt that there is such thing as a "gay tendency" in a 1 year old. I doubt they have sexual thoughts at that age. Just because you interpret something as a "gay tendency" does not make it so. I never used the words "toddler", but I think it develops from the time a child is born until they hit puberty.
Originally posted by misslilyYou post seems to suggest that sexual preference is molded into us as toddlers and or we choose our preference. Having been raised in a large family of siblings and cousins and seeing one child exert gay tendencies from age 1-1/2
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I have to agree with the DNA theory. I can remember my grandmother mentioning how different this child was prior to any nurturing or molding by the parents.
How do you know it’s not that certain traits influence a child’s path through life? A child who is odd or effeminate might not be accepted as “normal” and that might actually be the CAUSE of them developing true tendencies later in life… So yes, I would agree that there are certain genetic factors that might play a role in how easily we are influenced and manipulated by our environment, but there is no “gay gene”…
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To feel comfortable about having a gay relative; I did quite a bit of research and found that science supports being born with gay DNA. One of the more common explanations involves there being twins or triplets of different sexes at conception. For one reason or another; one or more fetuses perish and are absorbed into the remainin
But as Miss Lilly suggests, the “nurture” part is a bit tricky to explain sexual orientation. It wouldn’t explain why 2 boys (or girls), same sex born into the same family (under more or less identical conditions, 1/2 yrs apart, same school, hobbies, etc.) turn out differently - one’s gay and one’s straight. (I know we touched on this earlier as well). For your “nature” or “nurture”, I’d like to say “nurture”. We probably can’t call it the “gay gene” if you so please, but I really don’t think it’s nurture as well.
Play this game with me - imagine Mr.A and Mr.B were the brothers and Mr.B turned out gay. Now go back in time, and abduct both of them and put them in a “Lost” (TV show) type island with food and basic shelter, etc. Bring them back to civilisation after a few years. I bet you that Mr.B will still turn out to be gay. So it’s probably not a gay gene, but a “tendency”? I don’t know what we want to label it, but I’d pick “nature” over “nurture” to your argument.
BTW you’re a really intelligent guy 
quote:Side note: I love LOST. When I think about it from time to time, I get that same feeling like you would about an old pet that died. It's hard to believe that there will never be another new episode. We should have a debate about the meaning of LOST at some point. I could go on for weeks about the metaphors in LOST.
Originally posted by jamesbluntBut as Miss Lilly suggests, the “nurture” part is a bit tricky to explain sexual orientation. It wouldn’t explain why 2 boys (or girls), same sex born into the same family (under more or less identical conditions, 1/2 yrs apart, same school, hobbies, etc.) turn out differently - one’s gay and one’s straight. (I know we touched on this earlier as well). For your “nature” or “nurture”, I’d like to say “nurture”. We probably can’t call it the “gay gene” if you so please, but I really don’t think it’s nurture as well.
Play this game with me - imagine Mr.A and Mr.B were the brothers and Mr.B turned out gay. Now go back in time, and abduct both of them and put them in a “Lost” (TV show) type island with food and basic shelter, etc. Bring them back to civilisation after a few years. I bet you that Mr.B will still turn out to be gay. So it’s probably not a gay gene, but a “tendency”? I don’t know what we want to label it, but I’d pick “nature” over “nurture” to your argument.
BTW you’re a really intelligent guy
Okay, back on topic. About your analogy on an island. I bet that the person would be MORE likely to be gay on an island… Bet you didn’t see that one coming, did you??? The reason, is because I think strong negative views on homosexuality actually suppress the urge of people who might otherwise be open to something like that. So, in your island, there would be less oppression, thus any homosexual tendencies would never be suppressed. I’m n
Pretty late, all good points and such thorough research (I’m impressed!) but about that “first coming out/first knew” thing being so “late” (in your opinion)… I kind of expected that and it’s not late for me. Even if a kid knew at the age of 6 or 7, he probably didn’t know that he’s “gay”, he knew he was just attracted to people of his own sex.
An example: I’m very micromanager’ish btw. I was always that way, but it took me my mid 20s to “come out” of the “I micromanage” closet. Not because I was in denial, but because I just hadn’t been able to crystallise it into a phrase. If I were to take a survey tomorrow and someone asked me “when did you realise you were a micro manager”, I bet you I’d say “in my 20s” even though, perhaps I was a micromanager from as early as my pre-teens.
Likewise, those “first knew” ages are what I expected - early teens or pre-teens. So going back to the original choices, I still stick to “nature” and not “nurture”
Spking of TV shows, what did you think of Breaking Bad? That’s been my last big fave.
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Originally posted by jamesbluntquote:What is "normal" in your view?
Originally posted by Fred67 Acceptance means that it is normal, it is not normal.
Bolbie is a member on CF that seems very liberal and I’d guess never has to worry about money as Dad has him covered.
“Normal” is the pairing of the opposite sex to procreate life or just enjoy each others companionship through life.
I thought twice about weighing on on this forum and decided to let you know what I actually saw and experienced; a male family member who wanted nothing to do with the other male siblings and cousins easily seen by age 1-1/2. He turned away toy cars, trucks, boats, cowboy outfits, boots and guns. He only played with the girls and their dolls and dresses. As soon as he could walk, he was parading around in his mothers high heels. All of the family knew he was born different because all other nature and nurture facts were the same for over a dozen of his close family.
You debunk everything I stated as my interpretation. Well yes, it is the way I see it and a whole generation of family members see it. I thought this forum was to be a discussion so I weighed in with some personal insight. You are also weighting in with your interpretation and seem to want to ram it down everyone’s throat. Everyone else who does not accept your opinion is wrong? What discussion? I will not be giving you any more material to disagree with. You win.
I agree with Misslily, my personal experiences have been the same. You could tell by the time they were 3. Even if they didn’t know it, everybody else did.
Capt. Larry Teuton
Cracker Built Custom Boats
“Ships are the nearest things to dreams that hands have ever made.” -Robert N. Rose
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Originally posted by misslilyYou are also weighting in with your interpretation and seem to want to ram it down everyone’s throat. Everyone else who does not accept your opinion is wrong? What discussion? I will not be giving you any more material to disagree with. You win.
Not sure why you are getting so upset. This has been a friendly debate thus far. If you don’t like hearing a different opinion, then don’t participate in a debate.
How did you think a debate would work? Did you think you were just going to swoop in and settle everyone’s minds and then nobody is allowed to disagree with you?
Please show me where I am trying to “ram it down your throat”… This debate has been very cordial and respectful up until your post… It seems like you are way too sensitive and got your panties all in a wad all over nothing.
quote:It's on my list to watch, but haven't watched yet. Heard it was pretty awesome. Honestly, I am not a big TV watcher, but I do tune in for GOT and Walking Dead. The new one "The Leftovers" might be getting my attention soon.
Originally posted by jamesbluntSpking of TV shows, what did you think of Breaking Bad? That’s been my last big fave.