Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but are they saying that 276,000 fish were killed/taken in 2015, but there was absolutely no commercial or recreational season at all?
So the assumption is that all 276,000 fish were all either killed as a result of commercial boats’ bycatch, or after being released by recreational anglers?
Correct. They use a .41 mortality factor for commercial boats and a .39 mortality factor for rec boats. So they estimate the # of fish “caught” by both the commercial and rec sector through commercial logs and rec surveys and then they multiply that estimate by .41 and .39 and determine that many fish died as a result of being caught. Fool-Proof.
Do not tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don’t tell them where they know the fish.
Sellsfish, I am sure Mark is doing everything he can to draw attention to this ridiculous management scheme however as number of fish go up so will the number of encounters and calculated mortality. Feds have used the same rationale to close and keep closed many fisheries and in some cases used booming populations and encounters of fish, they call them takes, to declare they are endangered. Atlantic sturgeon is a prime example.
How do they know how many fish were caught and released? I’m not sure if I’m just confused, but I just don’t understand how there will ever be a season if they use that math? There could 10x more fish down there than they think, but if you multiply the catches times the mortality rate it will show a massive mortality rate. The rate will only get bigger as the population increases.
How do they know how many fish were caught and released? I’m not sure if I’m just confused, but I just don’t understand how there will ever be a season if they use that math? There could 10x more fish down there than they think, but if you multiply the catches times the mortality rate it will show a massive mortality rate. The rate will only get bigger as the population increases.
I follow SAFMC on FB and posed the exact same question. “How do you accurately assess the stock from NC to Key West to know the health of the population relative to your management techniques?” They would only respond with their method of determining mortality rate of released fish.
Other than spending large sums of money to patrol the reefs from 50-150ft throughout the year off of thousands of miles of coastline, there is no way for them to accurately determine the health of the stock. They have an assessment from some period of time that they are using as a base for their calculations.
I promise I am all for effective management of our fishery. I think black sea bass were handled well. I don’t bottom fish much but when I do I catch quality bass and 15-20 seabass per trip is all I care to take home of that species, especially when you start tossing in triggers and vermilion.
The red snapper stocks are clearly rebounding. For there to be no adjustment to the management measures leads me to believe that there is something more to this game. People make a lot of money off the privatized stock of red snapper in the gulf. If that is where this is heading and the “friends of fisherman” on the council do not at least give us a heads up there will need to be some “Fisherman’s Lives Matter” riots up and down the East Coast.
The federal government would understand if a transgender red snapper needed to “use” my fishbox… If he froze to death in there, how could I be held accountable for something like that?
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but are they saying that 276,000 fish were killed/taken in 2015, but there was absolutely no commercial or recreational season at all?
So the assumption is that all 276,000 fish were all either killed as a result of commercial boats’ bycatch, or after being released by recreational anglers?
That is correct. Also note that they use the same mortality rates that they used PRIOR TO the circle hook rule. If I recall, they blamed like 60-70% of mortality on J-hooks (gut hooking)... Now that everyone is using circle hooks, why haven't they adjusted their mortality rates?
That being said, this has ALWAYS been the debate on red snapper. It’s not the landings that matter. It’s the “release mortality” that drives the process. As long as people keep putting pictures up of “healthy releases” with blood shooting out of their gills, and talking about “floaters” the scientist on the SAFMC will continue to believe that release mortality is 40% and will continue to use these same broken formulas.
Also note a few more things that really suck for us… It’s been proven that red snapper show a very high site fidelity. Meaning… Most tagged red snapper are recovered within 0.25 miles of their original capture site. But, when it comes to regulations, they lump us in with Florida. Florida alone puts up the number of the “release mortality” that affects the entire region.
Bottom line is that even though these SC fish never swim down to Florida, the stock is treated as one, and SC pays for Florida’s “sins”…
He is only 1 vote on a council of 13 voting members.
Yeah I wonder how much common sense he tries to speak to the other 12?
Hands down last year was my personal best for cobia and now that’s going to be lost. pretty soon you will have to dive for blue crabs while im fishing for pin fish.
Yeah I wonder how much common sense he tries to speak to the other 12?
Hands down last year was my personal best for cobia and now that’s going to be lost. pretty soon you will have to dive for blue crabs while im fishing for pin fish.
Remember, he is a recreational fisherman (charters are under "rec" not commercial) who makes his living from catching these fish. Why would he not want to have a season? He'd be putting himself out of business. Mark is a pretty stand up dude with no hidden agenda.
But, you have to realize that these SEDAR scientists look at fisherman like they are all clueless rednecks that want to kill every last fish in the ocean. When fisherman speak, the “scientists” shut down their hearing… “Surely, this lowly fisherman is not going to tell me how to interpret my own models. I went to school for this stuff!!!”. They look down their nose at you for the most part. These “scientists” could care less about the empirical evidence\testimony from fisherman. They have a model and they plug data into this model. If the model shows something different than the fishermen, who do you think they will put their faith in? Again, us “redneck fisherman”, or their highly sophisticated, NOAA sponsored fishing formula? Until they figure out that their model for golliath grouper and hogfish is not the one they should be using for red snapper, we are doomed. It really has nothing to do with Mark as a person. It has everything to do with the SEDAR council’s own arrogance and not realizing that the fishing community is made up of doctor’s, lawyers, engineers, etc that can all solve problems better than they can. That’s the bottom line… Arrogance clouds sound judgment…
Yeah I wonder how much common sense he tries to speak to the other 12?
Hands down last year was my personal best for cobia and now that’s going to be lost. pretty soon you will have to dive for blue crabs while im fishing for pin fish.
Remember, he is a recreational fisherman (charters are under "rec" not commercial) who makes his living from catching these fish. Why would he not want to have a season? He'd be putting himself out of business. Mark is a pretty stand up dude with no hidden agenda.
But, you have to realize that these SEDAR scientists look at fisherman like they are all clueless rednecks that want to kill every last fish in the ocean. When fisherman speak, the “scientists” shut down their hearing… “Surely, this lowly fisherman is not going to tell me how to interpret my own models. I went to school for this stuff!!!”. They look down their nose at you for the most part. These “scientists” could care less about the empirical evidence\testimony from fisherman. They have a model and they plug data into this model. If the model shows something different than the fishermen, who do you think they will put their faith in? Again, us “redneck fisherman”, or their highly sophisticated, NOAA sponsored fishing formula? Until they figure out that their model for golliath grouper and hogfish is not the one they should be using for red snapper, we are doomed. It really has nothing to do with Mark as a person. It has everything to do with the SEDAR council’s own arrogance and not realizing that the fishing community is made up of doctor’s, lawyers, engineers, etc that can all solve problems
“One of the most insidious and nefarious properties of scientific models is their tendency to take over, and sometimes supplant, reality.” Erwin Chargaff
“Remember that all models are wrong; the practical question is how wrong do they have to be to not be useful.” George E.P. Box
There are many more quotes like this as well. I believe we are starting to rely to much on models and forgetting there limitations.
