Buddy of mine just blew a power head on one of his late model 4-Stoke 150 HP Yamahas. Carbon build up was listed as the reason for the failure. Dealer told him he needed to be running Yamaha Ring Free. I have a 250 Yamaha 4-stroke and run ethanol free fuel plus Star-Tron. Should I also be putting in Ring Free? Star-Tron says it prevents carbon build up, is this sufficient? Do I need to run Ring Free in place of the Star-Tron? Let me know your thoughts…all the additives add to the fuel cost pretty rapidly!
You could snake a cylinder with a borescope and see if the startron is doing its job. I am not overly impressed with startron. I had some non-e gas treated with startron that was in my golf cart for about 4 months. It was stored inside a garage, no rain or bad moisture. I went to run it and it was kinda rough and had to choke it a lot. I took some of the gas and burned it in my firepit. It burned slow like diesel, not a brisk combustion.
I switched to Lucas gas treatment a year ago and it seems to work better. Everyone has their own preferences, but I like the BRP products like carbon guard, XD100, HPF pro, etc. even in other branded engines. It’s just good stuff I have seen work first hand.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
I run ring free and starton in every fill up. Yamaha recommends ring free on every full up to help with carbon. Don’t know if it works, but that is what they recommend so that is what I do. I also run 89 non e gas.
Chad
Cobia 256 Express
Pulled by a Dodge Ram 3500
This makes no sense on a fuel injected 4 stroke engine. They are electronic controlled with an oil sump (they dont burn the oil like a 2 stoke). They burn very clean like a car engine. On a 2 stroke yes its needed because fuel and oil is mixed and burned.
I hope your buddy had a 2 stroke, otherwise I would question the failure mode, something else was wrong and caused that. Fuel quality is more important (ethanol, bacterial, water, etc) than carbon build up…
I was told by my mechanic to run Sea Foam. Anyone else use it?
“Apathy is the Glove in Which Evil Slips It’s Hand”.
quote:
Originally posted by Fishman 77This makes no sense on a fuel injected 4 stroke engine. They are electronic controlled with an oil sump (they dont burn the oil like a 2 stoke). They burn very clean like a car engine. On a 2 stroke yes its needed because fuel and oil is mixed and burned.
I hope your buddy had a 2 stroke, otherwise I would question the failure mode, something else was wrong and caused that. Fuel quality is more important (ethanol, bacterial, water, etc) than carbon build up…
There are many ways a 4 stroke can build carbon to the point of destruction. Any of the sensors could cause an excessively rich condition making carbon. A bad fuel injector, poor engine oil, bad gas, etc.
It does not take a lot of carbon on a piston to cause detonation with poor gas. (pinging) that will tear a piston apart in no time. It’s not just 2 strokes that are susceptible to carbon build up.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
It was a four stoke that blew. If a sensor went bad, then why did the motor not give an alarm? I fail to see with all the advances in engine technology why carbon build up is an issue in an outboard. My truck does not have issues after sitting in stop and go traffic several times a week? After a full day of trolling he always put the hammer down once he got into the harbor to blow the motors out good. I have always done the same, but in his case I guess it was just not good enough.
quote:
Originally posted by contender1It was a four stoke that blew. If a sensor went bad, then why did the motor not give an alarm? I fail to see with all the advances in engine technology why carbon build up is an issue in an outboard. My truck does not have issues after sitting in stop and go traffic several times a week.
That is a common misconception people have with electronic engines. A sensor can give bad data and never throw a code. A MAP sensor could be reading 100kpa but the manifold is actually at 90kpa. 90 is within the threshold of operation so the computer does not see an issue. It will set fueling and timing to the 100kpa which is incorrect. This is just an example, I have no idea if this is what actually happened but is common with pressure and temp sensors combined with corroded terminals.
Your truck does not run near as hard as an outboard. An outboard is always under load and if propped right is always at close to max load at a given rpm. Auto engines vary greatly underway and generally run lower RPM.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
quote:
Originally posted by MattRYour truck does not run near as hard as an outboard. An outboard is always under load and if propped right is always at close to max load at a given rpm. Auto engines vary greatly underway and generally run lower RPM.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
That’s why I wouldn’t think it would be a carbon issue? If two stroke I could see it, but being 4 stroke I’d have a hard time with it unless I saw the piston. I do agree with you if oil consumption was way up.
I’ve only seen a couple of 4 stroke boat engines tore down and they looked clean as a whistle. Honestly I can’t argue with you as my experience actually working on a 4 stroke boat engine is limited to water pump change outs and a couple of timing belts.
I have heard a few leaning out and burning a piston.
quote:
Originally posted by Fred67quote:
Originally posted by MattRYour truck does not run near as hard as an outboard. An outboard is always under load and if propped right is always at close to max load at a given rpm. Auto engines vary greatly underway and generally run lower RPM.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
That’s why I wouldn’t think it would be a carbon issue? If two stroke I could see it, but being 4 stroke I’d have a hard time with it unless I saw the piston. I do agree with you if oil consumption was way up.
I’ve only seen a couple of 4 stroke boat engines tore down and they looked clean as a whistle. Honestly I can’t argue with you as my experience actually working on a 4 stroke boat engine is limited to water pump change outs and a couple of timing belts.
I have heard a few leaning out and burning a piston.
I would not say its common for a 4 stroke to carbon up. It doesn’t take a lot of carbon to stick a ring and gouge a cylinder. I have seen carbon build on valve stems sticking them causing it to gobble them up. It’s really hard to say what caused the engine to fail without seeing the parts. I highly doubt the crowns carboned up to the point of interference like a 2 stroke will.
I tore down a heavily abused Honda 75 and it looked extremely clean. I know it rarely saw preventative maintenance and the only reason it was down was because a hole corroded through the head. The guy never flushed it, changed oil, adjusted valves, etc. It reaffirmed my confidence in Honda power.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
I do not know the exact failure, but it was tied to a spring and valve stem. Believe the valve contacted the cam if any of that makes sense? My concern is not over the actual failure, it is over the cited cause, “carbon build up” I always ran ring free in my HPDI, but have not been running in my four stroke, just the Star Tron and non-ethanol fuel.
Matt I really don’t follow your logic on the truck not running hard, but the outboard always running under load. I thought running it under load was what kept the carbon from building up? That is why I always let the dogs run hard after a full day of trolling. By the way my truck is a Tundra with the 5.7, the Toyota dealer recommended stomping it every so often to blow it out. On occasion I see a bit of black smoke roll out the tail pipe as I stick it to the floor on an onramp.
quote:
Originally posted by contender1Matt I really don’t follow your logic on the truck not running hard, but the outboard always running under load. I thought running it under load was what kept the carbon from building up? That is why I always let the dogs run hard after a full day of trolling. By the way my truck is a Tundra with the 5.7, the Toyota dealer recommended stomping it every so often to blow it out. On occasion I see a bit of black smoke roll out the tail pipe as I stick it to the floor on an onramp.
I see where that was a little confusing after re-reading it. I was talking as if there was an issue causing it to overfuel or timing off. The effects on a heavily loaded engine would be greater than a car engine. What would take several days to show up in a car would cause damage in a marine engine in just a few hours.
With industrial and diesel engines, you can monitor exhaust gas temp (egt) to keep the engine in its efficiency range to keep carbon formation to a minimum. You want to keep the egt in the upper 2/3 of the operating range. My Cummins in my truck should be kept between 900-1200 deg. to keep it clean.
Sorry for the babbling. I would just stick with a little something in the gas because it is possible for a new 4s engine to carbon up, its not commonplace.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
matt
startron is NOT made for ethanol free fuel
it is an enzyme that works WITH ethanol
if you run nonethanol fuel and startron, you are wasting your money
as for the 4 stroke building carbon, we see it all the time
its not as bad on a 4 stroke as a 2 stroke, but its way worse on an outboard than it is in your car
when was the last time you ran your car at 5000rpms or more for 15-20 minutes
MattR is exactly right about a sensor or other issue increasing the carbon build up
So Chris, would you suggest Ringfree for those of us with 4 strokes that only burn ethanol-free gas?
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Originally posted by chris Vmatt
startron is NOT made for ethanol free fuel
it is an enzyme that works WITH ethanol
if you run nonethanol fuel and startron, you are wasting your money
Maybe that is why it didn’t work so well in the golf cart? I don’t remember the label exactly but I thought it was good for gas and diesel as a cleaner too? I had the big bottle of startron and put it in everything but the car til I ran out and bought the Lucas. I am an additive junkie and try most of the mainstream stuff.
Hydra-Sports 22 Bay Sport
225 Rude
My boat holds 150 gallons I keep it full all the time with non-ethanol fuel. The boat sits sometimes for as much as 3-months with out running. I was using the Star Tron as a general fuel preservative/octane booster; not necessarly for ethanol phase separation. Thought added benefits may be help with carbon build up plus protection if I ever got ethanol fuel by accident. Is this not the right product for this application? Should I be running the old school red Stabil instead plus ring free? I priced Ring Free at West today 1 pint was $26. That is like liquid gold! Is there another product that offers the same protection as Ring Free? Also why do I not hear about Mercury/Honda/Johnson owners talk about running Ring Free type products?
who has the best charleston price on yammalube ring free?
I would suggest taking the motor to a professional yearly
most good shops do a carbon treatment as part of the annual service
if you have that done once a year, the carbon doesn’t ever have a chance to build up very much
as a weak second place, run ring free
Chris V: you are totally wrong about Startrom is of no use in non ethanol fuel.
First, Startron was formulated and marketed as a fuel treatment BEFORE there ever was ethanol.
Second, it is an enzyme that binds oxygen molocules to the carbon in fuel to make it burn faster and more complete.
Therefore it is a good product for both ethanol and non-ethanol fuels and keeps the carbon build up on pistols/engine internals.
And I work in the flat glass industry.
rifleman
I am by no means a chemist, but I do suffer from a healthy dose of common sense
startron makes claims that it will restore old fuel
uhmmmmm… yeah, not likely
I can personally verify that when used with ethanol fuel it will help prevent phase separation and stop the goo from building in the tank
as for the non-E gas, it doesn’t phase separate, it doesn’t grow the slime, it doesn’t go bad very quickly, hence the comment you are wasting your money
there are much better decarb products such as seafoam to use in non-E gas