quote:
Originally posted by Fred67quote:
Originally posted by Island BoyA circle cannot be drawn without a starting point. I am not attacking anones beliefs.
I agree with what you have said and I believe a lot is lost in translation in all forms.
My question was something I have simply wondered and knew had no answer I could recieve here.
Island boy, as you stated “I have simply wondered and knew had no answer I could recieve here.” gives me a sense that you are searching but deeper you have already given up. So I won’t give you an answer, just a personal thought. I was brought up Southern Baptist and when I joined the service sampled many different offshoots of Christianity and others. I still have my faith and pray everyday. I believe in GOD and will continue to everyday of my life. As I look at the sky, trees, flowers, and nature in general no way did chaos create our Universe. We have chaos in it, but it had to be created by intervention. My belief is GOD. I like the Bible and it’s teachings on living. (NEW Testament). I KNOW if more followed the Bible, we would have less crime and more morality in life. I also know this will not happen. GOD gave man free will and many choose that will to do evil or maybe worse nothing but cry about entitlement and hide their talents.
One other thing I know, GOD doesn’t want us to be unhappy and loves humor. The one I struggle with is why GOD let’s bad things happen, I chalk it up to the big test we live day to day to see if we are worthy of the reward.
If I’m wrong no harm done, If I’m right… Wow, I get a lifetime of the best hunting, fishing, and… QUESTIONS ANSWERED.
Take care Island Boy.
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Originally posted by skinneejLet’s be honest… Most of us here understand the physical universe about as well as a 2 dimensional PACMAN (yes, the video game) understands our 3 dimensional world. How could humans even pretend to comprehend what a 4th or 5th dimension would look like?
Yet, you argue that statistical improbabilities of life Earth somehow prove existence of god? Just because you, or I, or others can’t explain it (yet) doesn’t prove existence of god.
We (scientists more so) have a pretty good handle on how life exists on Earth and in our galaxy. That is the scope of our knowledge base.
As an atheist myself, who doesn’t have any underlying hints of beliefs in a god, I may be accused of limiting myself and not opening my eyes to the world around me, and being close minded. I would suggest those same ideas back to people who claim that life doesn’t exist elsewhere. Why does life elsewhere have to mimic life on Earth? According to Google, our periodic table has 118 elements. Could there be other elements in the universe, on the billions of other planets, in billions of other galaxies? Is it possible for life to have evolved based on these other elements. Lots of assumptions I know, but something to think about.
John
15’ Ocean Kayak Scupper Pro
quote:
Originally posted by xmanquote:
Originally posted by skinneejLet’s be honest… Most of us here understand the physical universe about as well as a 2 dimensional PACMAN (yes, the video game) understands our 3 dimensional world. How could humans even pretend to comprehend what a 4th or 5th dimension would look like?
Yet, you argue that statistical improbabilities of life Earth somehow prove existence of god? Just because you, or I, or others can’t explain it (yet) doesn’t prove existence of god.
Well, first of all it was just ONE of my arguments, not my only argument… Secondly, I did not argue the statistical “improbability”. I argued the statistical “impossibility”. Third, I don’t need to prove anything to you. I can only present you the evidence and you can make an observation yourself. But you have already been sold the “anything BUT God is a reasonable answer” premise, so with that lens on, you will never objectively view the evidence. I can appreciate a good design when I see one. For example, you can take an outboard motor and drop it into an ancient mayan civilization. They wouldn’t ever think, “hey this evolved”. The would instantly recognize that it was designed. They could dig in to it’s inner workings and learn everything there is to know about it and maybe exactly how it works, but their knowledge does not negate the fact that it was designed. If you told them, “this was not designed by another being, now figure it out”, they would probably come up with all sorts of crazy theories about how it was a hunk of metal tossed around by the wind until it ended up as an
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:You don't have to know every planet... Just calculate the STATISTICAL CHANCES...
Originally posted by jisuhoYour argument about earth being the only planet to have this or that is true but that argument is merely an example of the above. I cannot disagree with it but the only other planets we can compare to are those in our own solar system.
There is a lot more to just the “distance between the earth and the sun”… Also consider:
<> Composition of Earth
<> Size of Earth and affect of gravity. If earth was much bigger, only small (short) organisms could form. If earth was smaller, then no atmosphere.
<> Size of sun
<> Age of sun
<> Size of moon.
<> Distance of moon from earth. Closer or further has HUGE implications on tides, gravitational field, affect on meteor protection. There is a reason that the moon is beaten up with craters and the Earth only has a few!!!
<> Position of sun in our galaxy (between dense “arms” of the milky way)
<> Liquid center of Earth
<> Thickness of Earth’s crust
<> Heck, even the spectrum of visible light… What if the only thing that existed was UV light?That’s only a SMALL portion… There are literally hundreds of these and more are being discovered every day…
Also helps to have Jupiter. A local gas giant helps pull comets and asteroids away from Earth.
But given the short amount of time we’ve been searching for exoplanets, the limitations of Kepler, the inconceivable size of the universe, and the number of planets we’ve found with
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:
Originally posted by xmanquote:
Originally posted by skinneejLet’s be honest… Most of us here understand the physical universe about as well as a 2 dimensional PACMAN (yes, the video game) understands our 3 dimensional world. How could humans even pretend to comprehend what a 4th or 5th dimension would look like?
Yet, you argue that statistical improbabilities of life Earth somehow prove existence of god? Just because you, or I, or others can’t explain it (yet) doesn’t prove existence of god.
Well, first of all it was just ONE of my arguments, not my only argument… Secondly, I did not argue the statistical “improbability”. I argued the statistical “impossibility”. Third, I don’t need to prove anything to you. I can only present you the evidence and you can make an observation yourself. But you have already been sold the “anything BUT God is a reasonable answer” premise, so with that lens on, you will never objectively view the evidence. I can appreciate a good design when I see one. For example, you can take an outboard motor and drop it into an ancient mayan civilization. They wouldn’t ever think, “hey this evolved”. The would instantly recognize that it was designed. They could dig in to it’s inner workings and learn everything there is to know about it and maybe exactly how it works, but their knowledge does not negate the fact that it was designed. If you told them, "this was not designed by another bein
^^IE Infinite Monkey Theorem. Which, by the way, have any of you ever read the real world experiment based on that? It’s pretty hilarious.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3013959.stm
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A single computer was placed in a monkey enclosure at Paignton Zoo to monitor the literary output of six primates.But after a month, the Sulawesi crested macaques had only succeeded in partially destroying the machine, using it as a lavatory, and mostly typing the letter “s”.
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>https://web.archive.org/web/20040201230858/http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,58790,00.html
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At first, said Phillips, "the lead male got a stone and started bashing the hell out of it.“Another thing they were interested in was in defecating and urinating all over the keyboard,” added Phillips, who runs the university’s Institute of Digital Arts and Technologies.
</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>
quote:I don't assume that the universe is infinite, and I don't think most scientists do either.
Originally posted by YnROk, to be very clear, I’m not proving or disprovng the existence of God/god (esp in the off topic section of a fishing forum) but just to make a seemingly apparent counterpoint. If you assume that the universe is infinite and have no understanding or knowledge of how life exists and therefore don’t know what statistical values you’re dealing with (ie cannot prove a zero numerator) then you have to assume there is some possibility that life exists elsewhere no matter how small that chance is. In other words, give me enough tries and time and I’ll get you Windows 10 (but really who wants to spend all that time to make a crap platform anyway).
Again, I’m not telling anyone that they should or shouldn’t believe in a higher being but your argument needs some fine tuning.
Remember, scientists typically theorize that the known universe started at a point (i.e. the “big bang”) and can actually observe that it is expanding away from this point in an increasingly rapid fashion. This expansion is increasing in speed and at some point distant galaxies will be moving so fast away from each other and be so far apart that theoretical future humans will not even be able to observe them anymore. Isn’t it also statistically crazy that life as we know it exists BEFORE that theoretical milestone?
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Originally posted by Edistodanielquote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:You don't have to know every planet... Just calculate the STATISTICAL CHANCES...
Originally posted by jisuhoYour argument about earth being the only planet to have this or that is true but that argument is merely an example of the above. I cannot disagree with it but the only other planets we can compare to are those in our own solar system.
There is a lot more to just the “distance between the earth and the sun”… Also consider:
<> Composition of Earth
<> Size of Earth and affect of gravity. If earth was much bigger, only small (short) organisms could form. If earth was smaller, then no atmosphere.
<> Size of sun
<> Age of sun
<> Size of moon.
<> Distance of moon from earth. Closer or further has HUGE implications on tides, gravitational field, affect on meteor protection. There is a reason that the moon is beaten up with craters and the Earth only has a few!!!
<> Position of sun in our galaxy (between dense “arms” of the milky way)
<> Liquid center of Earth
<> Thickness of Earth’s crust
<> Heck, even the spectrum of visible light… What if the only thing that existed was UV light?That’s only a SMALL portion… There are literally hundreds of these and more are being discovered every day…
Also helps to have Jupiter. A local gas giant helps pull comets and asteroids away from Earth.
But given th
Is this part of the fine-tuned universe argument that intelligent designers try to use to interject religion into science?? If this universe was designed for life, then the designer was a moron. Do you know how much of the universe is hostile to life? If the designer worked for me, I’d fire him. I’m a big picture guy.
quote:Because more people is always better, right?
Originally posted by EdistodanielIs this part of the fine-tuned universe argument that intelligent designers try to use to interject religion into science?? If this universe was designed for life, then the designer was a moron. Do you know how much of the universe is hostile to life? If the designer worked for me, I’d fire him. I’m a big picture guy.
Edistodaniel, so are you saying that you are 100% against the idea of a “Supreme Being” or some type of supernatural force or deity? You don’t have any inclination of believing in this type of concept even in the 1% range? I think it would be interesting to hear your TRUE convictions…
Also, I would like to ask you how do you know ANY other life, other than your very own exists? What if I am not a real being, but just an antagonist in your perceived world, which is completely imagined by your brain? We know that the human brain perceives everything. Images, sound, smell, etc are just a series of electrical pulses that the brain puts together into an “image” that you can “see”. But what if even “skinneej” is something that your conscience has dreamed up? For example, we all “dream”, or think we do. In your dreams you see other people, interact with them, go on adventures, meet up with a hot chick, etc… But all of those persons or things are literally just made up by your mind. Some dreams seem incredibly real to the point where you wake up “pitching a tent”, or in a cold sweat, stressed out, etc… What if that is just a dream inside of a dream and you are really just a brain sitting on someone’s desk hooked up to a bunch of wires. Would you even know it?
What if every concept you have ever known about science, life, relationships, math, language, etc is just a “journey” completely imagined by your brain? Even Albert Einstein is a false persona created by your brain for the purpose of presenting a complex idea.
We know that isn’t true because I see your post too! That would mean that ED and my brain has perceived the same thing and that isn’t likely! 
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Originally posted by skinneejEdistodaniel, so are you saying that you are 100% against the idea of a “Supreme Being” or some type of supernatural force or deity? You don’t have any inclination of believing in this type of concept even in the 1% range? I think it would be interesting to hear your TRUE convictions…
Not against it at all. I just feel like it’s always a cop out by the holy rollers to try and fill in the gaps in science with religion, which I can’t stand. Keep the two separate.
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Originally posted by skinneejAlso, I would like to ask you how do you know ANY other life, other than your very own exists? What if I am not a real being, but just an antagonist in your perceived world, which is completely imagined by your brain? We know that the human brain perceives everything. Images, sound, smell, etc are just a series of electrical pulses that the brain puts together into an “image” that you can “see”. But what if even “skinneej” is something that your conscience has dreamed up? For example, we all “dream”, or think we do. In your dreams you see other people, interact with them, go on adventures, meet up with a hot chick, etc… But all of those persons or things are literally just made up by your mind. Some dreams seem incredibly real to the point where you wake up “pitching a tent”, or in a cold sweat, stressed out, etc… What if that is just a dream inside of a dream and you are really just a brain sitting on someone’s desk hooked up to a bunch of wires. Would you even know it?
What if every concept you have ever known about science, life, relationships, math, language, etc is just a “journey” completely imagined by your brain? Even Albert Einstein is a false persona created by your brain for the purpose of presenting a complex idea.
My perception is all I have, so why does it matter if it’s real or fake or aliens? As far as I’m concerned, it’s real, you’re real, Trump is real, etc.
quote:Not asking if you are against it... I'm asking what you believe... Are you completely devoid of belief of a supreme being? In other words, does a "small part of you" believe in a supreme creator?
Originally posted by Edistodanielquote:
Originally posted by skinneejEdistodaniel, so are you saying that you are 100% against the idea of a “Supreme Being” or some type of supernatural force or deity? You don’t have any inclination of believing in this type of concept even in the 1% range? I think it would be interesting to hear your TRUE convictions…
Not against it at all. I just feel like it’s always a cop out by the holy rollers to try and fill in the gaps in science with religion, which I can’t stand. Keep the two separate.
quote:What about his hair?
Originally posted by EdistodanielMy perception is all I have, so why does it matter if it’s real or fake or aliens? As far as I’m concerned, it’s real, you’re real, Trump is real, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:What about his hair?
Originally posted by EdistodanielMy perception is all I have, so why does it matter if it’s real or fake or aliens? As far as I’m concerned, it’s real, you’re real, Trump is real, etc.
The hair…, it’s there. It exists just like you and me, but it may not be real.
You know what the difference b.w a rock in a dream and a rock in reality is? Kick one and report your findings.
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:Not asking if you are against it... I'm asking what you believe... Are you completely devoid of belief of a supreme being? In other words, does a "small part of you" believe in a supreme creator?
Originally posted by Edistodanielquote:
Originally posted by skinneejEdistodaniel, so are you saying that you are 100% against the idea of a “Supreme Being” or some type of supernatural force or deity? You don’t have any inclination of believing in this type of concept even in the 1% range? I think it would be interesting to hear your TRUE convictions…
Not against it at all. I just feel like it’s always a cop out by the holy rollers to try and fill in the gaps in science with religion, which I can’t stand. Keep the two separate.
You’re not going to be able to understand this through your lens, but my belief of any sort of higher power has zero to do with the formation and condition of the universe, evolution, pretty much anything that has to do with science.
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:What about his hair?
Originally posted by EdistodanielMy perception is all I have, so why does it matter if it’s real or fake or aliens? As far as I’m concerned, it’s real, you’re real, Trump is real, etc.
