Intelligent Design

General Off Topic
41
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Beer Froth

Is this in reference to Man, and his gut? Should we know what is right and wrong even without accepting Christ?

Are Christians the only ones that can determine right from wrong, or can Man do it on their own?

RBF

Right and wrong from who's perspective? Also, you don't have to accept Christ to know right vs wrong.

Is it “right or wrong” to have an abortion? That depends on who you ask. From the Christian perspective, it is wrong. From a women’s “pro choice” rally, you might get a different point of view.

42

Skinneej, I’m glad you tackled this subject, not me. I will try VERY hard to not hijack your thread, you are doing a magnificent job thus far.

A few questions or comments if you don’t mind.

I would like to ask jughed what evolution the Noah story proved 100%???

If he means continuing on with mankind, Noah was Jewish ONLY.
The other races must be covered, probably where jughed came with the word evolution.
There is a Very simple explanation of the races, God created man on th 6th day, MALE AND FEMALE. Then He rested, AFTER THE REST, He created Adam, MALE ONLY, two different creations, also explains why God treats Jewish people TOTALLY DIFFERENT from ANY group of people or race of people. In the ark story, God told Adam “Take 2 of EVERY FLESH”, that would include both human creation stories, and races. Pretty simple, but made difficult because it flies in the face of Christian teachings.

Mcvlbound: “sons of God” in Genesis 6 refers to the “fallen Angels” mixing with the daughters of men, thus the REASON for the flood was to eliminate these impure bred giants called “Geber” in Hebrew. That is the reason God said Noah had a PERFECT GENERATION, and was an upright man. The story is also in the NT in the book of Jude, just before Revelation, verse 6 or so I believe, only 1 chapter in the book of Jude.

Beer froth, Don’t cut satan short, God said he is “more subtle(sneaky) than any
man”.

Not hijacking, skinneej, carry on, just wanted to ad a few things to your thread, if that’s OK…

“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”

43

Certainly MD, anyone can add to this thread. It’s taken quite a turn though…

The original intent was to introduce a very interesting video. One interesting thing about the video is that they do not really talk about God. They just open up the idea of Darwin’s evolution vs an “Architect”. Is that “Architect” God, aliens, future humans, etc? The video does not really address that point. It just leaves that open for discussion and it tries to show that the cosmos seems to have been architected by a designer. Thus, it doesn’t turn it into a standoff between athiests and Christians. If you are a Christian, I think it gives you the tools to defend the position as God as the Creator of the Universe. If you are not a Christian, at least it opens up the discussion to a very interesting topic (someone\something designed the universe).

44
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Beer Froth

Is this in reference to Man, and his gut? Should we know what is right and wrong even without accepting Christ?

Are Christians the only ones that can determine right from wrong, or can Man do it on their own?

RBF

Right and wrong from who's perspective? Also, you don't have to accept Christ to know right vs wrong.

Is it “right or wrong” to have an abortion? That depends on who you ask. From the Christian perspective, it is wrong. From a women’s “pro choice” rally, you might get a different point of view.

I agree. However, many do sell-out Man’s ability to to know the difference between right and wrong. I don’t want to relive the past, but I stated in the first thread, IF you accept Christ, and and follow your gut, you’ll be ok in the end.

You indicated Man could not determine right from wrong without seeking God’s counsel. I still believe Man is very capable to do so. The reality is we are among some sorry individuals that do know the difference between right and wrong. I am not seeking to engage in another debate, I am only giving a perhaps different view.

RBF

45
quote:
Originally posted by mac daddy

Skinneej, I’m glad you tackled this subject, not me. I will try VERY hard to not hijack your thread, you are doing a magnificent job thus far.

A few questions or comments if you don’t mind.

I would like to ask jughed what evolution the Noah story proved 100%???

If he means continuing on with mankind, Noah was Jewish ONLY.
The other races must be covered, probably where jughed came with the word evolution.
There is a Very simple explanation of the races, God created man on th 6th day, MALE AND FEMALE. Then He rested, AFTER THE REST, He created Adam, MALE ONLY, two different creations, also explains why God treats Jewish people TOTALLY DIFFERENT from ANY group of people or race of people. In the ark story, God told Adam “Take 2 of EVERY FLESH”, that would include both human creation stories, and races. Pretty simple, but made difficult because it flies in the face of Christian teachings.

“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”

So you are of the belief that Adam was far from being the first man - Christians/preachers are incorrect in their teaching (and in the eyes of some in this instance, under the influence of the devil)… and that every race had a male and female make to the ark, from all corners of the world… then traveled back to their exact locations after the flood… and proceeded to re populate the world?

Interesting.

So - per the bible, how many people were on the ark? Why no mention of representatives from each race being there?

46
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej

Certainly MD, anyone can add to this thread. It’s taken quite a turn though…

The original intent was to introduce a very interesting video. One interesting thing about the video is that they do not really talk about God. They just open up the idea of Darwin’s evolution vs an “Architect”. Is that “Architect” God, aliens, future humans, etc? The video does not really address that point. It just leaves that open for discussion and it tries to show that the cosmos seems to have been architected by a designer. Thus, it doesn’t turn it into a standoff between athiests and Christians. If you are a Christian, I think it gives you the tools to defend the position as God as the Creator of the Universe. If you are not a Christian, at least it opens up the discussion to a very interesting topic (someone\something designed the universe).

My point isn’t to create a standoff… but no matter what the video assumes, A god, any god for that matter - isn’t a proven entity, rather a belief.

We know nothing about creation - we only have theories and speculation.

Odd’s are, we will never know.

Read Mac’s response - further proof that believers and Christians can’t even agree, and they are all reading the same book, a book that is supposed to be the word…

47
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Beer Froth

I agree. However, many do sell-out Man’s ability to to know the difference between right and wrong. I don’t want to relive the past, but I stated in the first thread, IF you accept Christ, and and follow your gut, you’ll be ok in the end.

You indicated Man could not determine right from wrong without seeking God’s counsel. I still believe Man is very capable to do so. The reality is we are among some sorry individuals that do know the difference between right and wrong. I am not seeking to engage in another debate, I am only giving a perhaps different view.

RBF

That's not really exactly what I said. I think there are things that are displeasing to God that your "gut" might not know about and it's your job to learn them. There are things that are clearly wrong. I don't need to "seek counsel" with God to know that I shouldn't murder someone every day. But, did my "gut" tell me it was a sin to fantasize about women? Probably not. You seem to imply that I think the gut is wrong 100% of the time. That notion is silly. All I am saying is that the gut CAN be wrong.
48
quote:
Originally posted by jughed

My point isn’t to create a standoff… but no matter what the video assumes, A god, any god for that matter - isn’t a proven entity, rather a belief.

We know nothing about creation - we only have theories and speculation.

Odd’s are, we will never know.

Read Mac’s response - further proof that believers and Christians can’t even agree, and they are all reading the same book, a book that is supposed to be the word…

My point was not to "prove" God exists. My point is that this video opens the door up for discussion where atheists have shut it. My point is that if you look objectively at things, and you look at the statistical improbabilities, and the perfectness in the design all the way down to the molecular biological level, that the discussion of the "intelligent design" seems much more plausible even at a scientific level than Darwin's theory of natural selection.

If you are looking for a SCIENTIFIC explanation of an intelligent designer, then this video is for you. Again, it’s not the Bible Story.

49
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Beer Froth

I agree. However, many do sell-out Man’s ability to to know the difference between right and wrong. I don’t want to relive the past, but I stated in the first thread, IF you accept Christ, and and follow your gut, you’ll be ok in the end.

You indicated Man could not determine right from wrong without seeking God’s counsel. I still believe Man is very capable to do so. The reality is we are among some sorry individuals that do know the difference between right and wrong. I am not seeking to engage in another debate, I am only giving a perhaps different view.

RBF

That's not really exactly what I said. I think there are things that are displeasing to God that your "gut" might not know about and it's your job to learn them. There are things that are clearly wrong. I don't need to "seek counsel" with God to know that I shouldn't murder someone every day. But, did my "gut" tell me it was a sin to fantasize about women? Probably not. You seem to imply that I think the gut is wrong 100% of the time. That notion is silly. All I am saying is that the gut CAN be wrong.

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I believe we are on the same page. I believe our suroundings cause many of the World’s issues. But in the end we own our decisions.

My clarification point, being we all have choices, even those that have never seen or read a Bible. Some are just savages and that’s what it boils down to.

The link between this and the thread is evolution, some evolve with their minds vs. their brawn.

RBF

50
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by Cracker Larry
quote:
if you believe the story.

He must have built one heck of a big boat to get all those animals on there [:0] Elephants, tigers, lions, giraffes, monkeys, rhinos, hippos…2 of everything :question: Plus food. You couldn’t fit all that on a Carnival Cruise ship, or an aircraft carrier.

Capt. Larry Teuton
Swamp Worshiper

Or had divine intervention. Remember the time that Jesus fed 5000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes? You must think that those were huge loaves of bread and blue whales? When the Bible says that someone rides down from heaven on a white horse, do you think, "That's silly! I've never seen a flying horse"?

C’mon Skinny - you’re slipping - whales are not fishes.

51
quote:
Originally posted by SublimeOne
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by Cracker Larry
quote:
if you believe the story.

He must have built one heck of a big boat to get all those animals on there [:0] Elephants, tigers, lions, giraffes, monkeys, rhinos, hippos…2 of everything :question: Plus food. You couldn’t fit all that on a Carnival Cruise ship, or an aircraft carrier.

Capt. Larry Teuton
Swamp Worshiper

Or had divine intervention. Remember the time that Jesus fed 5000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes? You must think that those were huge loaves of bread and blue whales? When the Bible says that someone rides down from heaven on a white horse, do you think, "That's silly! I've never seen a flying horse"?

C’mon Skinny - you’re slipping - whales are not fishes.

Fishes is plural for different species. You can catch many of the same type of fish, and you caught fish. When you catch one of different species, then you can say I caught fishes. Not sure back then if they knew the technical differnce, but I am sure it was a miracle. I have the feeling if Jesus can heal the blind, etc. He prolly can make a meal go a long way…

RBF

52
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound

Look through Genesis. One example is after Adam and Eve had their fall, God said something like “look at them now they are like us knowing good and evil”. There are more.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Angels... Doesn't imply other gods...

Genesis Chapter 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I’m not saying that I know what exactly is being said there, but I don’t think that it can be said with any certainty that “sons of God” is referring to fallen angels, or angels of any kind for that matter. If it is angels than angels must be like men, in that they can breed with women. If that’s the case then angels must be very similar to men and could actually be walking among us.
Regardless it puts another question into my mind. If God made all of creation in 6 man days, when did He create the angels? Why would He create angels with sex organs for breeding, before He had created any women to breed with?
At the very least I would say that it implies that there exists beings that are our

53
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Beer Froth
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej

Not sure where this is going, but the other “gods” in the Bible are “false Gods”. Pagans just made up gods in their head and the one true God did not like that. It’s a slap in the face to the creator when your own people choose to worship false idols than the one who actually made them. There are plenty of places in the Bible to give context around the fact that these “gods” are “false gods”. Is Superman a super hero? Certainly he is even though he doesn’t exist.

There are a few places in Genesis where God refers to “us”. There is even a reference to the “Sons of God” hooking up with the daughters of men. I don’t think He was referring to idols.

The reference about "us" in Genensis, I have most recently seen to speculate that God is talking about "us" as in the father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I have never seen the argument speculating that it was referring to other "gods".

Look through Genesis. One example is after Adam and Eve had their fall, God

54
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound

Look through Genesis. One example is after Adam and Eve had their fall, God said something like “look at them now they are like us knowing good and evil”. There are more.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Angels... Doesn't imply other gods...

Genesis Chapter 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I’m not saying that I know what exactly is being said there, but I don’t think that it can be said with any certainty that “sons of God” is referring to fallen angels, or angels of any kind for that matter. If it is angels than angels must be like men, in that they can breed with women. If that’s the case then angels must be very similar to men and could actually be walking among us.
Regardless it puts another question into my mind. If God made all of creation in 6 man days, when did He create the angels? Why would He create an

55
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound

Look through Genesis. One example is after Adam and Eve had their fall, God said something like “look at them now they are like us knowing good and evil”. There are more.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Angels... Doesn't imply other gods...

Genesis Chapter 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I’m not saying that I know what exactly is being said there, but I don’t think that it can be said with any certainty that “sons of God” is referring to fallen angels, or angels of any kind for that matter. If it is angels than angels must be like men, in that they can breed with women. If that’s the case then angels must be very similar to men and could actually be walking among us.
Regardless it puts another question into my mind. If God made all of creation in 6 man days, when did He create the angels? Why would He create an

56
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound
quote:
Originally posted by skinneej
quote:
Originally posted by mcvlbound

Look through Genesis. One example is after Adam and Eve had their fall, God said something like “look at them now they are like us knowing good and evil”. There are more.

Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Angels... Doesn't imply other gods...

Genesis Chapter 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I’m not saying that I know what exactly is being said there, but I don’t think that it can be said with any certainty that “sons of God” is referring to fallen angels, or angels of any kind for that matter. If it is angels than angels must be like men, in that they can breed with women. If that’s the case then angels must be very similar to men and could actually be

57

I agree with skinneej’s answer, another example, the men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the angels(male) who were visiting Lot, and Lot offered the men his virgin daughters instead, to protect the angels.(that may be why some people believe there are female angels, but NO RECORD of any in the Bible. Also, no angels with wings, only Cherubim, and Seraphim, residents of Heaven, NOT called angels.

Check out these scriptures referring to “sons of God”, as Angels: Job 1:6 & 2:11 & 38:7
PSALMS 29:1 & 89:6------ Daniel 3:25 & 28.

Further answers mcvlbound to your questions: God created angels, and all souls, in the age before this age, 2Peter chapter 3.

God created Adam with sex organs before He created Eve.

People who have NEVER heard of Jesus, are covered as without sin, because they don’t know to do good, James 4:17.

that is what I believe the 1,000 year reign is for, in addition to believers who have not heard the word, but believe, AND those who have not heard at all, to be taught BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT DAY, dead and alive now. That is the fair way, and God is ALWAYS FAIR.

“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”

58

jughed, answer to your questions:

Was Adam the first man???
Answer: No. As explained before, man was ‘created’ on the 6 thday, MALE AND FEMALE.

Adam was ‘FORMED’ after the 7th day, MALE ONLY. Explains the races, where. Cain took a wife, and Adam was a Jew.

Did every race have a male and female on the ark???
Answer: God told Adam, “take two of EVERY FLESH”. The world wasn’t very populated then.

How many people were on the ark???
Answer: Only 8 Adam souls(Jewish), plus however many mankind souls were on there.

Why no mention of other races being there???
Answer: The Bible FOCUSED only on the Jewish people at that time, because they were the “chosen” race by God first. When they worshipped idols and turned their back on God so long, He FINALLY, after many warnings, and allowing them to go into slavery twice, gave up on them temporally.

He has promised to restore their nation and their favor with Him in the end time, soon. After all that, then He began to focus on other nations, and races. He gave STRICT RULES to NOT mix with other races, but they ignored that too, so He accepted non-Jewish people called Gentiles, into His fold too.

There is where the Christians come in to play, and many other religions.

“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”

59

1 Corinthians 15:45 - “The first man Adam…”
Genesis 3:20 - “Eve, because she was the mother of ALL living”…

I think that the scripture you give above are different accounts of the same event (the latter is a detailed description of the first). So, in Chapter 1 Moses explains how God made the earth and heavens. Chapter 2 starts out talking about resting on the 7th day… Then, chapter 2:4 says, “This is the account”, or in your KJ “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heaven”. It seems to me that they are EXPANDING on a topic earlier discussed (i.e. the creation of man). It’s like me saying, “God did X, Y, Z on days 1-7, but now let me give you more detail about what he did on day 6”.

60
quote:
Originally posted by mac daddy

jughed, answer to your questions:

Was Adam the first man???
Answer: No. As explained before, man was ‘created’ on the 6 thday, MALE AND FEMALE.

Adam was ‘FORMED’ after the 7th day, MALE ONLY. Explains the races, where. Cain took a wife, and Adam was a Jew.

Did every race have a male and female on the ark???
Answer: God told Adam, “take two of EVERY FLESH”. The world wasn’t very populated then.

How many people were on the ark???
Answer: Only 8 Adam souls(Jewish), plus however many mankind souls were on there.

Why no mention of other races being there???
Answer: The Bible FOCUSED only on the Jewish people at that time, because they were the “chosen” race by God first. When they worshipped idols and turned their back on God so long, He FINALLY, after many warnings, and allowing them to go into slavery twice, gave up on them temporally.

He has promised to restore their nation and their favor with Him in the end time, soon. After all that, then He began to focus on other nations, and races. He gave STRICT RULES to NOT mix with other races, but they ignored that too, so He accepted non-Jewish people called Gentiles, into His fold too.

There is where the Christians come in to play, and many other religions.

“The big one’s still swimming, let’s go.”

And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. (Genesis 6:19, emp. added; cf. 7:15).

And why was He telling Adam instead of Noah?

RBF