Real simple the biker lets the cars pass and no problem.I do not think a man with family would start something with a mess of Bikers.
Stonoman
Mob Mentality
Other factors come into play when the term “mob mentality” is used to refer to something negative. Two of the main factors are the greater anonymity that exists within a group and the distribution of responsibility for the group’s actions. These factors sometimes make a person believe that they can act a certain way within a group and not have the same consequences that the same actions would have if he or she acted alone. For example, if a person is in a group that is vandalizing a building, he or she might believe that there is less of a chance of getting caught than if he or she was acting alone, because it might be difficult to identify every person who was involved. He or she might also feel less guilt because other people also vandalized the property.
Another factor in mob mentality is the sense of confusion or even panic that can exist in a large group. An example of this can be seen when people in crowds suddenly begin rushing in one direction. Although many people in the group might not know why this is happening, they see the urgency in the group and begin rushing in that direction, too. In extreme cases, the urgency and panic increases, creating a sort of crowd hysteria, and some people might even get trampled as a great number of people try to move in the same direction as quickly as possible. Even for something as seemingly innocent as a department store sale, a mob mentality might be evident as dozens of shoppers rush toward the sale items, push each other out of the way and fight over the items.
Man do I stand corrected. Had no Idea that one of the bikers was actually run over and very seriously injured. And Skinneej you’re definitely right about the legalities of the situation. The truth of the matter is that there’s a very real possibility that I would have been too frightened to consider the the legal ramifications at the time. You are right as well that speculation played a big part in my reaction to the story. I would like too assume the driver of the RR wouldn’t be acting like an ass in front of his child but sadly that may not be true at all. For all I know he may an arrogant jerk who brought on at least some the aggression displayed by the biker by his own actions. Also, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you would do any less to protect your loved ones than myself or anyone else who frequents this site. Your posts and reply’s here certainly dispel that Idea.
Matt, totally agree with your views on Range Rovers. Actually though I came very close to buying one recently, the thing rode and drove great but then I did the research. Not fun being stuck on 26 at three a.m. with your boat in tow between cola and ob. Also as to getting out of the vehicle and facing that mob, you’re a braver man than I am. That would require balls of steel. I imagine though that as one ages balls of steal could become a nuisance considering that pendulum thing the old guys have going on.
Matt,
Key West 1520
70 Yami
She’s little, but she’s pretty, skinny and fast.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/us/new-york-bikers-attack-video/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
“Those who have the ability to make a difference have the responsibility to do so.” Thomas Jefferson
quote:
Originally posted by GeronimoNo one was killed or even injured. It appears as though the driver waited until he saw a clear path and ran over the bikes.
It wouldn’t be hard to navigate a vehicle out of that first situation dodging people, unless someone just foolishly jumped in front of a moving tank.
As far as a weapon present, or feeling a threat Skinnij. How can you say 30+ angry people are not a threat to life and limb. You must give yourself mad props in your ability to talk yourself out of a situation. I myself would not put my families life on the line with the HOPE of being able to smooth things over. When you are alone and put yourself in a bad situation I understand your beliefs, but when it is your duty to protect those that can’t protect themselves, it takes an entirely different mindset.
However you are right that we do not know what started this. He could have thrown a bottle at one of them, called them a racial slur, or even threatened to run them over. Even if he did all of those things, it does not give them the right to stop his vehicle and advance on his grounds.
“Banana Pants”
Indigo Bay 170
90 JohnsonWilderness Ride 115
One of the bikes that was plowed, the rider is paralyzed from the waist down and spinal cord is broken in 2 places… Just FYI
There would have been a hell of a mess if that was me and my family here. I always carry .40 with 2 mags the equal 30 rounds. My wife also carries… Big mess, big mess…
" It is what it is".
quote:No harm done. For me, I think to give a "what would I do" answer, I would have to evaluate the entire story, and it seems that the most critical part (in my mind) is missing. This is a great example of how things can escalate out of control quickly and shows the reason why the initial decision making
Originally posted by saltwater420Man do I stand corrected. Had no Idea that one of the bikers was actually run over and very seriously injured. And Skinneej you’re definitely right about the legalities of the situation. The truth of the matter is that there’s a very real possibility that I would have been too frightened to consider the the legal ramifications at the time. You are right as well that speculation played a big part in my reaction to the story. I would like too assume the driver of the RR wouldn’t be acting like an ass in front of his child but sadly that may not be true at all. For all I know he may an arrogant jerk who brought on at least some the aggression displayed by the biker by his own actions. Also, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you would do any less to protect your loved ones than myself or anyone else who frequents this site. Your posts and reply’s here certainly dispel that Idea.
Matt, totally agree with your views on Range Rovers. Actually though I came very close to buying one recently, the thing rode and drove great but then I did the research. Not fun being stuck on 26 at three a.m. with your boat in tow between cola and ob. Also as to getting out of the vehicle and facing that mob, you’re a braver man than I am. That would require balls of steel. I imagine though that as one ages balls of steal could become a nuisance considering that pendulum thing the old guys have going on.
Matt,
Key West 1520
70 Yami
She’s little, but she’s pretty, skinny and fast.
It makes no matter what happened before the video starts…no action justifies forcefully stopping another vehicle on the highway and approaching it in a threatening manner. That in itself is justification for force, in my opinion. Had it been one biker, then the justification might not be there. But how many bikers came to a stop around this SUV? The sheer numbers of them would be viewed, by me, the same as a single person pointing a gun in my direction. If I fear for my safety, and especially if I fear for the safety of my family, God help you…I will use any and everything at my disposal to stop that action from happening. The lawdogs can sort it out later…
As to anyone getting run over and suffering a broken leg or paralysis, they should have not stopped in front of another vehicle on the highway. Sometimes you make your own destiny.
I felt the SUV driver was doing ok until he took that exit.
I may piss you off to no end on the road, but that never gives you the right to threaten my safety or the safety of my family.
Oh…and never get out of your vehicle (dismounting your motorcycle is the same thing). That is the wrong thing to do this day and time.
quote:
Originally posted by RWLquote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:I think you made that part up! 99% of the bikers are just sitting there wondering what the hell is going on. Yes, a few of them approach the car, but it is hard to tell how many, and we cannot see what they are doing. What if they are yelling, "Get your ass out of that car you SOB!" (implying that the car is a protective barrier that they cannot get through with their bare hands). There law is pretty clear that there has to be an immediate threat to your life. It does no say, "any time you are scared for your life". If you ump the gun and start killing people because you are scared, you could end up in prison. That's no life for me!!!
Originally posted by RWLI respectfully disagree with the part in bold in this case. If it is just 3-4 people around me, then yes a weapon may need to be present for me to feel like my or my family’s life is being threatened, but in this case when there are 25-20 people around you vehicle, yelling who knows what at you, and you look in the rear view only to see 50-60 more bikers coming, then your and your family’s life is threatened in that vehicle.
Never said I would bring out the gun at that point. I would however drive out of there over bikes if need be, just like the driver. I think it is safe to assume that a group of them were acting toward the driver the same as we see during the rest of the chase. Why else would someone feel the need to high tail it out of
quote:Legally, it definitely does. A person claiming "self defense" is going to have a hard time with that defense if he is provoking fights.
Originally posted by cape_fishermanIt makes no matter what happened before the video starts…
How would your perception change if you saw the driver throw a glass bottle at the guy who ended up stopping in front of him?
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:Legally, it definitely does. A person claiming "self defense" is going to have a hard time with that defense if he is provoking fights.
Originally posted by cape_fishermanIt makes no matter what happened before the video starts…
How would your perception change if you saw the driver throw a glass bottle at the guy who ended up stopping in front of him?
He would be charged by now had he done such a thing…
So anyway…at this point, the bikers are at fault…we’ll see if that changes.
quote:I'm not saying he did. I'm just saying that it would matter if there was more to the story. You implied that nothing would matter, but surely it would. That's my only point. Everything matters. Whether it happened or not is a different argument.
Originally posted by cape_fishermanquote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:Legally, it definitely does. A person claiming "self defense" is going to have a hard time with that defense if he is provoking fights.
Originally posted by cape_fishermanIt makes no matter what happened before the video starts…
How would your perception change if you saw the driver throw a glass bottle at the guy who ended up stopping in front of him?
He would be charged by now had he done such a thing…
So anyway…at this point, the bikers are at fault…we’ll see if that changes.
It’s incredibly obvious that there was some dialog before the “brake check”. You can see the biker talking to the driver at 0:17 and then the driver honking the horn at 0:18. What happened at -0:30, we will never know…
Simple for me.mess of bikers around my car.family inside.They block me off see ya buddy.I blow the horn you fail to move tough &@&$t.
Stonoman
Ditto Stonoman. I have a wife and a small daughter and would do as you say. Safety for my girls is #1.
Did you guys miss the part where the bikers caught up to him and beat him and didn’t harm the girls?
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejDid you guys miss the part where the bikers caught up to him and beat him and didn’t harm the girls?
Are you using hind sight to say that one should have KNOWN that no harm would come to the wife and child? I am having a hard time understanding the premise of your question here. What does that have to do with how one may feel when their vehicle is surrounded and their tires are being slashed? Is it not safe to assume that there were threats beings yelled at the driver while his tires were being slashed? I know, they were just saying “I hope you have a nice day, sir” and “Can you please step outside and discuss this unfortunate accident that just took place? We won’t hurt you or your family.”
quote:Is it not a possible outcome that you have to consider? I seriously doubt that the woman and child's life were every in jeopardy. They probably just wanted to beat the guy's ass. And again, if they weren't breaching the protection of the vehicle, the guy may or may not have an argument to use lethal force. There was no "fleeing" in this situation. They guy had to attempt to use lethal force to get out of there. Sure, if there was an open lane and nobody got ran over, then yes, haul ass. But there was a decision to escalate the use of force and that can backfire on you too. I'm just saying, without knowing all the facts, I think it's silly to say, "Oh yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that I would do XYZ". How can one make that decision without knowing the facts? That is my premise and has been my premise the entire discussion. I think giv
Originally posted by RWLquote:
Originally posted by skinneejDid you guys miss the part where the bikers caught up to him and beat him and didn’t harm the girls?
Are you using hind sight to say that one should have KNOWN that no harm would come to the wife and child? I am having a hard time understanding the premise of your question here. What does that have to do with how one may feel when their vehicle is surrounded and their tires are being slashed? Is it not safe to assume that there were threats beings yelled at the driver while his tires were being slashed? I know, they were just saying “I hope you have a nice day, sir” and “Can you please step outside and discuss this unfortunate accident that just took place? We won’t hurt you or your family.”
I think once these guys brandished weapons ( knives ) and cut down some tires, their intent was not a good one by any stretch of the imagination.
" It is what it is".
I was close to a car jacking near NYC many years ago. I was lost in Jamaica area, 8 guys came across the stree and then seperated, surrounded my truck, I hit the horn and the blasted out of there, two front guys dove out of the way, one tried to climb into my truck bed but I jerked the truck right and left and he fell off. I was so scared, it was either fight or flight, I chose flight. The adrenaline just kicks in and your mind goes into survival mode to get out of that situation.
What I see from the video, I know I would of done the same. Being frightened when a gang of men has stopped your car having your wife and child with you is a tense situation . Its easy for everyone to look at it now an have an opinion, but I know I would of done the same !!!
Allof these bikers should have full responibilty of this, they seems to caused the issue from slowing traffic , even blocking all cars from proceeding at a normal pace and speed. Having a vehicle for the road comes with responsibility, that means follow rules of the road, its not a play ground. If you want to go fast and do tricks, go to a race course or that type of event , not on public roads.
I will pray for all of those involved
24’ SeaPro, 250 Yammaha
quote:
Originally posted by skinneejquote:Is it not a possible outcome that you have to consider? I seriously doubt that the woman and child's life were every in jeopardy. They probably just wanted to beat the guy's ass. And again, if they weren't breaching the protection of the vehicle, the guy may or may not have an argument to use lethal force. There was no "fleeing" in this situation. They guy had to attempt to use lethal force to get out of there. Sure, if there was an open lane and nobody got ran over, then yes, haul ass. But there was a decision to escalate the use of force and that can backfire on you too. I'm just saying, without knowing all the facts, I think it's silly to say, "Oh yeah, there is no doubt in my
Originally posted by RWLquote:
Originally posted by skinneejDid you guys miss the part where the bikers caught up to him and beat him and didn’t harm the girls?
Are you using hind sight to say that one should have KNOWN that no harm would come to the wife and child? I am having a hard time understanding the premise of your question here. What does that have to do with how one may feel when their vehicle is surrounded and their tires are being slashed? Is it not safe to assume that there were threats beings yelled at the driver while his tires were being slashed? I know, they were just saying “I hope you have a nice day, sir” and “Can you please step outside and discuss this unfortunate accident that just took place? We won’t hurt you or your family.”
quote:Would it "bother me"? Of course it would. Would I attempt to kill someone over it, I am not sure. It would depend on if I thought that my or my family's life was truly in jeopardy.
Originally posted by RWL“Don’t worry honey, they just want to beat my ass. They won’t bother you at all!” Give me a break!
What you propose about starting off slow and giving warning is another possible option that the driver did not leverage. Am I saying that he should have done that? Again, WE DID NOT SEE THE MOST VITAL 10 SECONDS OF THE ENCOUNTER…
The bottom line is that you do not know what the best course of action would be. You have to make a split decision based on the facts that are given to you at the time. And you always have to realize that if you react violently towards someone, that things may escalate a lot quicker than you wanted and you might be in worse shape than what you were originally. Again, you never know, but if you are prepared to kill someone, then you had better be ready to fight to the death. Sometimes a better option is to not escalate force, especially when you are severely outnumbered.