Do you consider slashing the guys tires a “breach of the vehicle’s protection”? If not, are you supposed to sit there until they render the vehicle useless? Isn’t being able to drive away part of the vehicle’s protection for you?
It's definitely vandalism. Is it a direct threat to the driver's life? Probably not. Will a judge rule that it can be perceived that way? Probably.
Again, I have already said several times this topic. There is a good chance that I MIGHT have done the same thing, depending on what transpired during those 10 seconds. I’m not silly enough to speak in definitives though when I don’t have all of the facts.
Sorry, but I don’t make ridiculous rules like “Hey if a guy tries to slash my tires, I will kill as many of his friends as I can”.
Again, I think it’s pretty obvious that the guy actually made the wrong decision. He escalated force and then pulled into an area where he was entrapped. At that point, whatever was going to happen, happened. It’s not much different than if he had pulled out a gun and started shooting at bikers and then 5 guns pointed back at him and killed him and his whole family. Can you say definitely that was the best course of action? If you do, then you are fooling yourself. Would I have done that? It’s possible. I don’t give blanket answers to complex situations.
We can just agree to disagree. I will not second guess what that driver was thinking and I am sure he doesn’t care what we think anyway. I think if you look close, he does start out slow before he guns it. Some of the bikers were actually starting to move out of the way.
“Sorry, but I don’t make ridiculous rules like “Hey if a guy tries to slash my tires, I will kill as many of his friends as I can”.” That was a very Democratic way of arguing your point. To debate someone being ridiculous by making a ridiculous scenario yourself. There wasn’t just one guy around his vehicle and stating that his thoughts were to kill as many friends as he could. Come on, you can do better than that! I am sure his thoughts were, “I need to get the he!! out of here”
Anyway, You can just call me silly, because I have seen enough and read enough reports on this to know EXACTLY what I would have done. If you haven’t, then so be it.
Anyone can post about what they would have done, or what that guy should have done, but here is my question. In the 6+ minutes that this took place, where were the police? Nearly everyone has a cell phone these days, I would assume someone driving a Range Rover would have one. In this situation, I am not sure how I would have handled things, but I know my wife would be on the phone with 911 while I was figuring it out. I havent read anywhere that the police were called or if so, why it took so long for them to respond. I would imagine this would be a priority call… Anyone know?
I can say one thing for sure, at the point where my window was being busted out by a helment, the guy doing it would feel the effects of my Glock splitting his melon and it would be empty before I accepted an ass whippin from these punks…
Key West 19’6" CC 115hp Merc
14’ Fast Craft w/ 60hp Merc
I mind my business, you mind yours. Once I am surrounded and stopped by a large group of people I don’t know, I will make some sort of decision: whether it be the right one or not. Then we all live with the consequences of said decision. The end.
We can just agree to disagree. I will not second guess what that driver was thinking and I am sure he doesn’t care what we think anyway. I think if you look close, he does start out slow before he guns it. Some of the bikers were actually starting to move out of the way.
“Sorry, but I don’t make ridiculous rules like “Hey if a guy tries to slash my tires, I will kill as many of his friends as I can”.” That was a very Democratic way of arguing your point. To debate someone being ridiculous by making a ridiculous scenario yourself. There wasn’t just one guy around his vehicle and stating that his thoughts were to kill as many friends as he could. Come on, you can do better than that! I am sure his thoughts were, “I need to get the he!! out of here”
Anyway, You can just call me silly, because I have seen enough and read enough reports on this to know EXACTLY what I would have done. If you haven’t, then so be it.
I think you are taking this too personal. My comments were general and not directed at you. Read other posts on this forum and read comments under the link. There are plenty of posts that say, "If x happened to me, I would take out as many of them as I could". Yes, it's just jibber\jabber tough guy talk whether you want to acknowledge it as that or not.
Don’t know the law in NY, but my CWP instructor taught us, if you are threatened and you see a knife, you shoot. You never fire a warning shot because that indicates that you have a way out of the sitation, same with never shooting to injure. If you are going to pull the gun then it is pulled to shoot to kill. Fact is, a knife in the hands of someone experienced can kill alot quicker than a gun. We know these fellas had knives since they slashed the tires. From the clip I would say deadly force is justified. There does remain the question however of what started it. If the driver of the RR did something to the biker that does change things some; but at the same time if the bikers were in the right then why were they carrying knives and why did they not stop and call 911 to say “hey a driver of a RR just threw a glass at my buddy” as was suggested earlier. I will add if the driver of the RR had a cell phone in the car and he did not call 911 then he too has some explaining to do.
Don’t know the law in NY, but my CWP instructor taught us, if you are threatened and you see a knife, you shoot. You never fire a warning shot because that indicates that you have a way out of the sitation, same with never shooting to injure. If you are going to pull the gun then it is pulled to shoot to kill. Fact is, a knife in the hands of someone experienced can kill alot quicker than a gun. We know these fellas had knives since they slashed the tires. From the clip I would say deadly force is justified. There does remain the question however of what started it. If the driver of the RR did something to the biker that does change things some; but at the same time if the bikers were in the right then why were they carrying knives and why did they not stop and call 911 to say “hey a driver of a RR just threw a glass at my buddy” as was suggested earlier. I will add if the driver of the RR had a cell phone in the car and he did not call 911 then he too has some explaining to do.
Your instructor was talking about a situation where you are not sitting inside the protection of a vehicle or your home.
Also, I don’t know where you get the warning shot idea from. The law states that you are only allowed to use deadly force as long as it is justified. The minute that deadly force is not justified any more, you are not allowed to continue using it. There was a story of a 70 year old man on the news last year who shot an armed criminal robbing a store. The criminal fell to the ground and when he did, the old many ran up to him and put more bullets in him and killed him. If I recall, they were attempting to charge the old man with homicide saying that he should have stopped when the criminal was disabled. Now look, I am not offering an opinion on this, so don’t shoot
I think that the problem is that most people go into a CWP class with the mentality “Okay, when am I allowed to shoot someone?”, like you are studying up on the rules for hunting season. Instead, it should teach you that using deadly force is the absolute last thing you want to do, and only if it’s the only way to save your life or family’s life.
Sure, deadly force sounds like a great idea to “save your family”. But, it also might be the quickest way to put your family in true danger. If you pull out a pistol and 3-5 of those bikers have a pistol, you and your family are absolutely dead. Congrats. You killed everyone. I think you would be playing against the odds on that one. You can get all “superhero” on me if you want, but that wouldn’t be realistic. If you start a gunfight and the only cover you have is your car that your 2 year old girl is in the back seat. She is getting shot by stray bullets. Period…
I sure as hell don’t think like an attorney, had that swarm of bikers gathered around my car with my family inside and threatened me, there would have been a whole bunch of flat ones.
I read that he tried to speed away at the end but the Ranger wouldn’t move. Something broke, typical Range Rover. They usually can’t go but about 4 miles between break downs.
We can just agree to disagree. I will not second guess what that driver was thinking and I am sure he doesn’t care what we think anyway. I think if you look close, he does start out slow before he guns it. Some of the bikers were actually starting to move out of the way.
“Sorry, but I don’t make ridiculous rules like “Hey if a guy tries to slash my tires, I will kill as many of his friends as I can”.” That was a very Democratic way of arguing your point. To debate someone being ridiculous by making a ridiculous scenario yourself. There wasn’t just one guy around his vehicle and stating that his thoughts were to kill as many friends as he could. Come on, you can do better than that! I am sure his thoughts were, “I need to get the he!! out of here”
Anyway, You can just call me silly, because I have seen enough and read enough reports on this to know EXACTLY what I would have done. If you haven’t, then so be it.
I think you are taking this too personal. My comments were general and not directed at you. Read other posts on this forum and read comments under the link. There are plenty of posts that say, "If x happened to me, I would take out as many of them as I could". Yes, it's just jibber\jabber tough guy talk whether you want to acknowledge it as that or not.
Not personal at all. I just discuss things such as yourself. I just don’t put a lot of credit into those “tough guy comments” you tare talking about. You know they are full of ****. I know they are full of ****, so I don’t address them. One will probably come on here
Based on what you have said, I just would not wait as long as you to use any means necessary to get out of the situation. Then again, maybe you would wait very long if actually in the situation.
We are all good!
I honestly don't know how long I would wait. I'm not telling you that I would wait any longer, or wait any less. I've been in plenty of fights before. You just get an instinctive feeling about when to strike first, when to run, and when to bluff your way out. It's not really something you can map out rules for in advance, "Hey if X happened then I will do Y". I guess that is why they call it the "fight or flight response".
My other point (not to you alone, but to all other participants), is just because you pick a direction based on what superman would do, doesn’t mean it’s the best direction. I think it’s pretty clear that this guy chose poorly. Yes, I realize that is hindsight, but people are still saying, “I would do whatever it would take to save my family”. This guy did NOT save his family. If anything, he put his family in even MORE danger by escalating the situation. How do I know he did NOT save his family? Because they still caught up to him in the end and did not touch his family. Saving your family, might mean something other than initiating a conflict with 100 bikers.
The whole point is that when people decide to use deadly force, you MUST consider what happens when you do. You don’t get a mulligan in that situation.
Believe you mis-read my post. I clearly stated you do not pull a gun unless you intend to use it. You do not fire warning shots, you do not shoot to wound. Also I did not go to CWP training to find out when I could or could not shoot someone. If I wanted that training I would consult a judge, not an off duty cop that offers CWP training on his weekends off.
As far as the safety of your vehicle and the castle law, too many people are under the impression that you can only use deadly force if someone breaks some type of barrier such as a home or car door. That is not true, deadly force can be used if you or others are in fear of your/their life and there is no escape route. If I am walking down a wide open street and see a man being robbed at gun point, I can use deadly force to save him. If I am standing in my front yard and a passer by jumps out his vehicle and pulls a knife and I don’t have an escape route I can shoot him right there, I don’t have to pull him into my house to make it legal. A judge that sees that sees and empty magazine and hears the words I was in fear of my life is going to be far more understanding.
I would be real curios to know if there have been any further developments on this story. As I said before if the guy in the RR was not calling 911 during that 5-minute chase he has some explaining to do himself. He should have been on the phone immediately saying, I just hit a biker that brake checked me, I am now being chased by an angry mob and I am in fear of my families life.
As far as the safety of your vehicle and the castle law, too many people are under the impression that you can only use deadly force if someone breaks some type of barrier such as a home or car door.
That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that IF there is a suitable barrier between you (i.e. there is no opportunity for someone to harm you), then you are NOT justified to use deadly force.
Obviously you can use deadly force in the open. There is no barrier between you and the person has the ability to harm you.
Again, my analogy is that if an unarmed person was standing in your front yard threatening to kill you, and you shot him out of a window even though you were in the protection of your own home, then you would probably have some legal issues. You might have been “scared” that he was going to harm you, but if there was no legitimate way that he could have harmed you, then you are on the wrong side of the law. The point of that was to show that “being scared” is not a justification to use deadly force. There also has to be the OPPORTUNITY for an attacker, before you are justified to use deadly force.
Agreed, and since his window barrier was being bashed in with a helmet then deadly force could vary well be justified. A helmet could be considered a weapon in this case, and a helmet upside the head could kill you just as quick as a gun.
Now what would I do in this situation I really don’t know. In all that confusion it is really hard to say what any of us would do until we are actually in the there. Start shooting and someone might start shooting back, very dangerous for the family and any bystanders. Also we would all like to think we are tough guys that could pull a trigger on an attacker but actually doing it is another thing. I have had some military friends that have killed in action. They will tell you straight up, pulling the trigger is not easy. Put me in a deadly situation where I have to protect my family, I know I could do it. Put me in a situation with just me, that would make it harder. Easy to play tough guy, but another thing to actually do it. Kind of reminds me of Eastwood’s Unforgiven, perhaps his best western movie as it is the most realistic in my opinion.
sheesh, is this still going? only thing wrong here is that the guy didn’t have significant damage to all sides of the Rover from clearing any idiot that came near the vehicle off the road, you attack me I’ll meet your force with as much force as I have available, Yes officer I was afraid for my life, I had no intention of hurting anyone I was just trying to protect myself and my family, they were swarming all over me, I didn’t think I had an option!!
or I guess he could have been nice and just waited to see if it “escalated” and get his donkey whipped, and possibly his family injured
oh yea that’s what DID happen, only thing that saved his wife were a couple bystanders that stepped in
rather take my chances with a jury of my peers than with a bunch of gang thugs
Agreed, and since his window barrier was being bashed in with a helmet then deadly force could vary well be justified. A helmet could be considered a weapon in this case, and a helmet upside the head could kill you just as quick as a gun.
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I am not arguing that. But that came much later in the confrontation. The choice to use deadly force was the first time that the driver ran over the guy in front of him. There is no evidence of a bashed window at that time. Again, that is the most important time window in the entire ordeal, none of us were privy to witness…
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Now what would I do in this situation I really don't know. In all that confusion it is really hard to say what any of us would do until we are actually in the there. Start shooting and someone might start shooting back, very dangerous for the family and any bystanders. Also we would all like to think we are tough guys that could pull a trigger on an attacker but actually doing it is another thing. I have had some military friends that have killed in action. They will tell you straight up, pulling the trigger is not easy. Put me in a deadly situation where I have to protect my family, I know I could do it. Put me in a situation with just me, that would make it harder. Easy to play tough guy, but another thing to actually do it. Kind of reminds me of Eastwood's Unforgiven, perhaps his best western movie as it is the most realistic in my opinion.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying. That, and the fact that every action has a consequence. One may jump the gun in using deadly force which might esc
only thing that saved his wife were a couple bystanders that stepped in
No way. That's a ridiculous statement. It's pure, fabricated speculation that is not even likely. Nobody even approached her window. It was pretty obvious that they were after the driver.
In a group of 70+ bikers, you don’t think that one of them would put a stop to hurting a woman or child? Please…